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Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: Wizards & Warlocks -- Hexblades, Raven Queens, and Lore Mastery!

Master of Hexes Starting at 14th level, you can use your Hexblade’s Curse again without resting, but when you apply it to a new target, the curse immediately ends on the previous target. Does this mean you can cast it one more time, or over and over again? And does the 1 minute duration reset upon a new target, or does it continue from the previous target?

Master of Hexes
Starting at 14th level, you can use your
Hexblade’s Curse again without resting, but
when you apply it to a new target, the curse
immediately ends on the previous target.


Does this mean you can cast it one more time, or over and over again? And does the 1 minute duration reset upon a new target, or does it continue from the previous target?
 

Colder

Explorer
I think Hexblade missed the mark. At first glance, the patron seems like it was made with melee warlocks in mind.

But the Hexblade Curse works with all attacks. Which means that Eldritch Blast spam is still a better option for Hexblade than actual blades.

I think if Wizards made it so the curse benefited weapon attacks more than spell attacks, that'd make it much better.
 

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RSIxidor

Adventurer
I just noticed that the Hex Warrior feature does not work with the Curse Bringer invocation, as the former excludes two-handed weapons and the latter manifests a greatsword. I already think that the greatsword is too strong here, so I'd suggest changing that to a longsword instead. Removing the restriction is probably too good.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
To be fair, I think they're assessing the reaction to damage type swapping, save swapping, and spending spell slots on extra effects. Judging whether or not those effects belong to the wizard class is probably a secondary but still interesting consideration for them.

This very much could be the what of it.

And what could very well end up happening is that the surveys will be filled with people talking about how these features should be sorcerer abilities and not wizards... and very few will complain or have a problem with the features themselves. Which will end up telling them that the abilities are probably fine and they can then assign them to whomever they want once the product goes into final production.

I actually think that's what much of the UAs have been about... delivering new mechanics with fluff attributed to them just for presentation sake, but not necessarily how the fluff will be at the end of the day. I mean, are we really going to get all of these subclasses that are fey-based (as so many of the UAs were?) Maybe... but maybe not? Quite possibly this fey stuff was just a temp-track to bind the mechanics together in a package for presentation.

And the same could hold true with these metamagics-- they already had four Sorcerer subclasses to get out there for testing and maybe didn't want to overload it with new metamagics as well that perhaps could have gotten overlooked. So they put the metamagics onto the Wizard. And this accomplished two things-- one, it gave the Wizard playtest article a bit more depth, and two-- it offered us the idea of possibly giving metamagic to other classes-- either perhaps indeed a generalist wizard tradition, or maybe perhaps even the possibility of a Metamagic feat that would allow another caster to get one just like the Martial Adept can get you some maneuvers. Because they are now going to hear from a lot of people in the upcoming survey just how important it is to people that metamagic remains under the sole province of the Sorcerer, or whether folks are okay for other classes to be able to dabble.

Doing it this way is going to get them a lot of response to that question, methinks.
 

Barolo

First Post
I would absolutely take the Claw of Acamar on my Warlock, if only it didn't have to manifest as a stupid flail.

Why not simply allow any pact weapon you create to gain the special property of this and similar invocations without locking the warlock into a specific weapon choice?

While I agree that there is no real need to lock the invocation with a specific weapon, I did find it not stupid, but rather flavorful that they chose a flail to mimic a property inspired by tentacle attacks, with the reach and "grabbing" (i.e. 0 move) thing.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
The power creep is strong with this UA and with multi classing :):):):) will be ridiculous. But i don't hate whats here, the designers just need to restructure things so it's not so easy to dip for so many fantastic features.

This has been called out before and Mike Mearls replied that in the class design flow, it goes from designer to developer (or vice versa, I get them confused), and the UA publish/feedback part happens int he first one of those and the multiclass balancing part happens int he second one of those.

So there should be no expectation that UA subclasses are multiclass balanced. They might be, but at the point they get published they are still early in the design phase and want community feedback, they haven't spent time polishing things which may get changed a lot.

This isn't disagreeing with your point at all, just saying that they've acknowledged that's not part of this phase of the design but it will be given a critical eye later. So give them that feedback!
 

Barolo

First Post
I just noticed that the Hex Warrior feature does not work with the Curse Bringer invocation, as the former excludes two-handed weapons and the latter manifests a greatsword. I already think that the greatsword is too strong here, so I'd suggest changing that to a longsword instead. Removing the restriction is probably too good.

It was on purpose, as pointed out earlier in the thread. Most likely as a choice for those who want to use a heavy weapon and have to go str anyway.

EDIT - changing post and quote order for clarity sake.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
There has been some discussion about specific mechanics in recent UAs, where people believe that Mechanics are actually not at all connected to the class they are labeled for. It is possible that the final goal of the "change energy type" is to fit in a Sorcerer, or the Shadow Hound is planned for a Ranger subtype.
Potentially true, but there is a small hole in the theory.
Abilities that work just fine in the context of one character, may be vastly different in terms of another character, because of the base class abilities.
It would then make the playtest data potentially less useful. Still possible, but less than likely I imagine.

Raven is by far the more interesting of the two for me, at level 6 they become master escapists and I can see the abilities being really powerful in the hands of someone creative.
I would have ratherred it be tied to "a tiny creature under CR..." rather than specifically raven, not because raven is bad. Just because it would officially accommodate more concepts and I doubt it would break anything.

I agree with that, for both the Hexblade and Raven Queen, it would be nice if they expanded the flavor. However, I wonder if making the Raven Queen patron ability not give a flying creature would weaken it a lot. A lot of the utility of it is tied into the ability to fly. But, if a player chose that it could be okay I think.

Since I didn't see anyone state this directly yet, it's important to remember that Unearthed Arcana is a showcase for ideas, and not intended as fully-analyzed or completely-balanced options for an otherwise-serious long-term campaign. As we've seen in the past, they intentionally over-power the concepts that they want to gather feedback on, because that's the best way to guarantee lots of playtesting for it. If they decide to move forward with an idea, because testers like the concept (even if they complain about the power balance), then they usually tone the numbers down before they make anything official.

See, I’d find that a better argument if I thought the majority of the last few options were actually severely over-powered. Sorcerer, Ranger, Rogue, and Monk all felt either on-par or relatively un-impressive.
I can’t imagine they will actually allow the Lore wizard to hit print as is, because I don’t see how it doesn’t overshadow every wizard and sorcerer option currently available.


  • Wizards and land druids get a recovery feature that gives half class level worth of spell levels (1 to 10). This is limited to once per day after a short rest, when the caster must decide how to allocate all the slots.
  • Sorcerers get sorcery points equal to class levels (starting at lvl 2, so 2 to 20), which they can use also to create spell slots. The cost is variable, but barring first level slots, this sorcery pool can be converted to spell slots with roughly 30% more efficiency than arcane recovery (for example, a 12 level wizard can recover 3 second level slots whereas a sorcerer can create 4 second level slots). Moreover, the sorcerer can do so on the fly, not needing to plan in advance.
  • The sorcerer can also readjust their spell slots if they perceive this could be profitable. This is a corner case, as it is costly, but is still an option other casters don't have. (Of course, using a optional rule like spell points nullifies this advantage sorcerers have)
If a wizard can burn through spell slots to power their new metamagic-like feature, they are also expending resources the same way as sorcerers. To state that arcane recovery recovers spells for the wizard while burning sorcery points to create slots eats up resources for the sorcerer is a little misleading. In the end both are using extra resources, it is just that arcane recovery is less flexible and less efficient.

After the 12th level sorcerer creates those 4 2nd level slots, how many sorcerery points do they have left?

Zero.

If they used any metamagic over the course of that day? Then they can only make 3 2nd level slots just like the wizard. If they twinned Haste and later in the day quickened a fireball, that is 5 points, and with only 7 points remaining they can only get 2 2nd level slots.

Every time a Sorcerer uses their metamagic abilities, or their bloodline abilities that cost points, they lose their ability to create spell slots. How does the wizard lose access to Arcane Recovery? They can’t. Nothing you can do, beyond denying short rests, prevents the wizard from recovering. Font of Magic is theoretically more flexible than arcane recovery, but it is a pool being depleted by 2 important abilities, while Arcane Recovery just happens, all the time.

Sure, a sorcerer could give up their metamagic to create a slot if they need it in a desperate situation, but like you said, all Full casters get the same slot progression. If a Bard or Cleric or Wizard can find ways around not having the perfect slot, sorcerers can too, especially considering that once you’re out of points, a lot of your abilities dry up and disappear.
 

Taking some of the aspects of the Hexblade, one could come up with a concept of a gunslinging Hexslinger as a variant.

I like that Pact of the Blade in many of the other patron types get more options, but the other ones like Tome and Chain could use a few more new invocations too.

The invocations that give +x to a weapon, could instead be one that scales with level, because one could choose to retrain away the invocation of a lesser bonus and get the bigger bonus one.

A Great Old One Bladelock, could be quite a "sticky" character with both Grasp of Hadar and Claw of Acamar, with the ability to pull something 10 feet 1 round, and to reduce the speed to 0 in the next round.
 

Barolo

First Post
(...)
After the 12th level sorcerer creates those 4 2nd level slots, how many sorcerery points do they have left?

Zero.

If they used any metamagic over the course of that day? Then they can only make 3 2nd level slots just like the wizard. If they twinned Haste and later in the day quickened a fireball, that is 5 points, and with only 7 points remaining they can only get 2 2nd level slots.

Every time a Sorcerer uses their metamagic abilities, or their bloodline abilities that cost points, they lose their ability to create spell slots. How does the wizard lose access to Arcane Recovery? They can’t. Nothing you can do, beyond denying short rests, prevents the wizard from recovering. Font of Magic is theoretically more flexible than arcane recovery, but it is a pool being depleted by 2 important abilities, while Arcane Recovery just happens, all the time.

Sure, a sorcerer could give up their metamagic to create a slot if they need it in a desperate situation, but like you said, all Full casters get the same slot progression. If a Bard or Cleric or Wizard can find ways around not having the perfect slot, sorcerers can too, especially considering that once you’re out of points, a lot of your abilities dry up and disappear.

If you were playing a wizard and, instead of being given arcane recovery you were given an arcane pool the same size as the sorcerer, that you can only use to create spell slots, would you feel it was a nerf or an upgrade to the wizard? Now, if you add to this pool the possibility to do something else, such as to enable metamagic, would it again be a nerf, because now you will need to share this resource between different functionalities? If you could use your arcane recovery to do something else, anything else that you could find useful, would that be worse for you because now you may be compromising your ability to recover spell slots?

Anyhow, the minority of sorcery origin features cost sorcery points. And my main point was that to equate 1 sorcery point to 1 level of spell is not fair. A sorcerer may need to sacrifice a level 1 spell slot to use a 1 sorcery point metamagic, but they also may not need to do it because they already have the sorcery pool which is more abundant for this purpose. The proposed lore master wizard will have to sacrifice the slot, which is more expensive. I know this comparison gets blurred more often than not, because the sorcery spell pool is asymmetrical in the way it works. But it also reveal something that is aligned to my opinion: extra flexibility should have a cost. This is the main reason (maybe even the only reason) I do not adopt the optional spell points rule from the DMG.

In the end, what I am really trying to say is that one sorcery point coming directly from the sorcery pool is cheaper than one sorcery point coming from a first level spell slot. It is self-evident, as the spell slots only return sorcery points on a one-by-one ratio, but to create slots from the sorcery points the cost is higher, isn't it?
 

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