Universal RPG's not Universal?

[Moon_Goddess]

This is no attack against True20, I find it a great system, like the mechanics.

But the complaint I have against it, tends to be the complaint I have against most universal RPGs. Universal d20 RPGs in particular.

True20 proposes to be a universal rpg yet has no rules for space travel, mutations, primitive cultures?

The book has only 3 classes, yet one of them is entirely devoted to magic. That's one third of character creation used for something most genres will not include.

Even d20 Modern has huge amounts of information devoted to magic.


Does anyone else see way too much attention devoted to magic in supposedly universal rpgs? Is this laziness on the part of devolopers, just throwing in work already created and not creating other work to balance it out? Or do others just prefer an over importance on fantasy rather than other genres?

 

[JBowtie]

Actually, I don't consider it an issue.

In sci-fi settings, the adept can be used for psionics, telepaths, and aliens. In hard sci-fi or modern settings where psionics is not relevant, you're only losing one role and a handful of feats. And the True20 Companion gives you a lot of leeway in designing new, more appropriate roles if you feel you need them.

I know rulebooks spend a lot of time on magic/psionics, but mainly because a) it's hard to balance/houserule and b) a lot of settings use it in one way or another.

The tricky part for any "universal" system is to streamline things so you can handwave or remove those aspects of the rules you don't care about and easily add complexity in places you do care about.

 

[Johnny Angel]

My understanding is that the margins are just lower on science fiction than on fantasy. I don't know how the business works. The best you can do at this point is buy into what's available and hope it helps make the genre look profitable.

My big project is doing the Star*Drive campaign setting in d20, and helping others do the same. A number of OGL publishers have put out materials that have made this a hell of a lot easier, so I've been buying their stuff, but I'm not real sanguine that my couple of bucks here and there is weighing very heavily on their bottom lines.

I will say this, though. Science Fiction rules available from WotC and outfits like RPGObjects and Blue Devil (these being the ones I'm mostly familiar with) should have any trouble translating to True 20's variant on the core mechanic. It would take a lot less work to translate the few rules needed for spaceship combat from d20 Future and Blood & Space, for instance, to True 20 than it would to translate a whole list of spells into the new mechanics. They already did the harder part. The space rules are mostly going to use the same mechanics. So, as much as I love to complain, I think their priorities were straight in terms of how much work they've saved GMs overall.

 

[wingsandsword]

Even d20 Modern has huge amounts of information devoted to magic.

1. I didn't think that d20 Modern was promoted or held to be a "universal" game system. It's a version of d20 that is meant for use in modern-day games, with supplements for settings in the past from Renaissance to WWII, and Near Future to Far Future games.

However, that's not universal (the skill list and talents are definitely built around modern life). It's very adaptable, far more than D&D, and building a truly universal RPG from the d20 Modern framework would be definitely feasible, but RAW d20 Modern never really claimed to be universal.

 

[Jim Hague]

True20 proposes to be a universal rpg yet has no rules for space travel, mutations, primitive cultures?

Not in the corebook, no. No moreso than GURPS or HERO or Tri-Stat does. Those setting tweaks are in the companion, and are extensive.

The book has only 3 classes, yet one of them is entirely devoted to magic. That's one third of character creation used for something most genres will not include.

Or the Adept could be considered a shaman, a psychic...again, things to tweak the setting are found in the True20 Companion, much like other universal systems.

Does anyone else see way too much attention devoted to magic in supposedly universal rpgs? Is this laziness on the part of devolopers, just throwing in work already created and not creating other work to balance it out? Or do others just prefer an over importance on fantasy rather than other genres?

I think in this case it's you misunderstanding the information presented.

 

[Ranger REG]

This is no attack against True20, I find it a great system, like the mechanics.

But the complaint I have against it, tends to be the complaint I have against most universal RPGs. Universal d20 RPGs in particular.

True20 proposes to be a universal rpg yet has no rules for space travel, mutations, primitive cultures?

The book has only 3 classes, yet one of them is entirely devoted to magic. That's one third of character creation used for something most genres will not include.

Even d20 Modern has huge amounts of information devoted to magic.

Does anyone else see way too much attention devoted to magic in supposedly universal rpgs? Is this laziness on the part of devolopers, just throwing in work already created and not creating other work to balance it out? Or do others just prefer an over importance on fantasy rather than other genres?

Fantasy sells well in RPGs, period.

Eventually, the designers will get around to doing the other genres. In the meantime they're building up exposure to the brand to gamers already familiar with a certain genre.

Then again, the beauty of d20/OGL is to let other publishers to develop other genre-specific supplement material for use with a particular SRD-based rules engine. All you need is to look hard enough on the internet ... and a credit card.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

Fantasy sells well in RPGs, period.

I guess honestly that's the part I hate.

I see fantasy as one genre out of hundreds, and not even one I delve into often. I guess the average rpg player or designer see's fantasy as the most important genre.

I'll see about the True20 companion. As I said I didn't mean to directly attack it.

Flipped through it in my local Hastings and noticed the 3 class issue and went off, needed to gripe a little.

I guess my choice would have been to fold the adept into the expert so that all the classes could always be used for every game.



Anyway, if I might ask a further question, does anyone know of a good rpg for primitive tribes? Stone age, low magic if possible?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

True20 proposes to be a universal rpg yet has no rules for space travel, mutations, primitive cultures?

Not in the corebook, no. No moreso than GURPS or HERO or Tri-Stat does. Those setting tweaks are in the companion, and are extensive.

I'd disagree slightly here- Core HERO does have rules that allow for space travel...they are just greatly expanded in the Star Hero book.

Does anyone else see way too much attention devoted to magic in supposedly universal rpgs?

Not really- a good universal must be able to handle genre drift. A magic, psionics or any other supernatural system that breaks the laws of physics is going to have to be balanced against the rules that simulate the laws of physics. And that takes a lot of pages to do.

Besides, a lot of genre fiction includes some form of the supernatural. Even in sci-fi contains a large subset of fiction that does so- mostly what we call Space Opera. The Force? The Wierding Way?

Only Hard Sci-Fi doesn't...and for games in HSF settings require a huge gear & tech section.

Anyway, if I might ask a further question, does anyone know of a good rpg for primitive tribes? Stone age, low magic if possible?

HERO or M&M would work...but in all likelyhood, I'd probably just use D&D or a similar game and look for their rules on primitive weapons & armor. In D&D's case, I'd check out the rules from DarkSun (in the Dragon update or at Athas.org).

 

[Roudi]

Just to throw in my two cents here, but I really think you need to sit down and read the True20 core book if you're going to deride its status as a "universal" system. That said, I don't think True20 was ever build as universal, simply as a system that was easy to use for multiple genres.

The Adept is a class focused almost entirely on True20's powers system. Powers can replicate magic, psionics, extraordinary human ability, monstrous abilities, and effects beyond comprehension. It fits in some genres and doesn't fit in others. Why is this a bad thing? The Warrior and Expert classes are so versatile that, in a non-supernatural setting, they're all I'd ever need. That's part of their design.

These are the kinds of things you miss in a quick perusal off the bookstore shelf. Seriously, don't knock it 'til you've read it twice.

 

[Ranger REG]

I guess honestly that's the part I hate.

I see fantasy as one genre out of hundreds, and not even one I delve into often. I guess the average rpg player or designer see's fantasy as the most important genre.

Most important, fun, easier to control, etc. The first RPG just so happens to be Dungeons & Dragons ... not Papers & Paychecks.

I'll see about the True20 companion. As I said I didn't mean to directly attack it.

Perhaps you think the core rulebook would have everything you need for all the other genres.

Technically on the core rules level, it has everything you need when it comes to resolving whatever situation that may encounter during the session, whether it is resolving combat or a pass/fail test (skills, ability, etc.).

But you want more, like the stats of a laser sword or an obsidian blade. The "trappings" that define a certain genre. It's going to take more volumes to give you everything you want, whether you're interested in a certain genre or not. Give them time. Even GURPS didn't have their collection of worldbooks done overnight.

Flipped through it in my local Hastings and noticed the 3 class issue and went off, needed to gripe a little.

I guess my choice would have been to fold the adept into the expert so that all the classes could always be used for every game.

Anyway, if I might ask a further question, does anyone know of a good rpg for primitive tribes? Stone age, low magic if possible?

What are you specifically looking for in a prehistorical-genre RPG?