Untrained/trained Skills....Noooo!

[Remathilis]

IME, you get Wizards who don't fall because they are always flying, who don't drown because they plane shift to Arboria, who don't fail climb checks (also due to flying).

Armored Paladin? Ring of Water Walking, or Winged Boots.

Basically, high level D&D turns into a super heroes game because it's easier to solve problems with magic than it is to use skills.

If we want to reduce the reliance on magic items, we should also make skills easier to use.

Cheers, -- N

Quoted for absolute truth.

Why solve a problem with mundane means (like skill checks) when its easier/cheaper to buy/make a magical trinket that removes the issue completely.

The first level rogue is superior at climbing because he has more ranks and/or less armor check penalty than his fellow adventurers. By 10th level, he's still using those risky climb checks while his allies fly, dim door, spider climb, and a variety of other spell or item tricks which are 100% reliable* and easily obtainable.

* unless you have anti-magic fields at the top of each cliff, but that's just mean.

 

[Celebrim]

The first level rogue is superior at climbing because he has more ranks and/or less armor check penalty than his fellow adventurers. By 10th level, he's still using those risky climb checks while his allies fly, dim door, spider climb, and a variety of other spell or item tricks which are 100% reliable* and easily obtainable.

I think that is partly that I think they are going to find it very hard to cut down on this that I don't particularly like universal competance. You are muscling in on the skillful character's role.

The reason that I think its going to be hard to cut down on the sort of magic usage here described is that

a) Players like getting loot.
b) DMs like giving away loot.
c) The real problem with the magic reliance in 3e wasn't the described problem, but the math. Namely, stat boosting items and layers of different named bonuses boosted AC's, attack bonuses, spell DC, and saving throws to the point that it became escallating warfare. If the PC's boosted thier spell DC's, then the monsters had to boost thier saves to keep up. But this meant that everyone that didn't boost thier DCs was screwed, which eventually meant that the whole 'kit' of magic items became essential. The ability to fly for X rounds a day is powerful, but it doesn't screw up the math.
d) This sort of loot has a long history in the game and people expect it of D&D. Someone posted one of EGG's old characters on the boards a few weeks ago, and by comparison to modern kits his armor and weapons were fairly ordinary even weak. He certainly didn't have the big six. But his accessories were very much a 'get out of death free' kit.

 

[DonTadow]

The sooner people stop thinking in terms of the HEROization of D&D, the better, I say.

No heroes in dungeons and dragons?

 

[Campbell]

No heroes in dungeons and dragons?

Not heroization. HEROization as in the HERO System. We already have Mutants and Masterminds for that.

 

[WyzardWhately]

IME, you get Wizards who don't fall because they are always flying, who don't drown because they plane shift to Arboria, who don't fail climb checks (also due to flying).

Armored Paladin? Ring of Water Walking, or Winged Boots.

Basically, high level D&D turns into a super heroes game because it's easier to solve problems with magic than it is to use skills.

If we want to reduce the reliance on magic items, we should also make skills easier to use.

Cheers, -- N

This is a good thought.

Also, as an incidental, I spent a lot of time this past weekend playing SAGA. We had zero problems with the skill rules as written. I found I was rather fond of them, just for how quick they were, and found them entirely serviceable. The proof is in the pudding, for me. YMMV.

I also find myself coming down on the side of liking the 1/2 level for all untrained uses bit. I think the problem is scaling. It seems as though all the examples of why this is a bad thing use 20th level characters for that example. This is sort of ridiculous, because 20th level characters are supposed to be absurdly badass. They've spent years doing insane things in every environment imaginable, under circumstances that no normal person could survive. I suspect, that with 'skill challenges' and 'terrain challenges' and the new theory of traps, all these simple physical abilities like balancing and jumping tables and keeping your feet under you, climbing and swimming, etc., are going to be a much bigger part of every character's life from Level 1 on up.

I mean, really. After you've stabbed your way out of a dragon's gullet and survived a few poison gas attacks, swimming across a river and climbing a tree is probably pretty tame.