[UPDATED!] D&D Beyond: An Official D&D Digital Toolset & Character Builder

doctorbadwolf · Mar 14, 2017

Jester David said:
That and I imagine the pricing model will probably give people sticker shock. I expect the Basic Rules will be cheap - if not free - but buying each successive book will be expensive. Expect to pay $50 for the PHB data pack.

Unless they have a way of stopping folks from using the "create x" feature to effectively copy and paste phb options into the program, I rather doubt it.

Corpsetaker said:
To be honest, I would really like for them to go back to the type of VTT they had with 4th edition because it was so easy to just log in and join up in a game right then and there. Fantasy Grounds is just way too overpriced and a hassle.

I want to come in from work, log in, and scroll down to see what games are waiting for players and just join in.

I really liked the 4e VTT. I feel like they could have dominated the VTT market if they'd found someone to finish it and make it compatible with other systems.

At this point, I don't use a VTT, because none of them are as convenient and easy as the DDI one, and I'd have to pay extra for modules to plug official DnD content into them, which I'm not all about.

For me, without the full suite of integrated tools, I'd rather use a webcam and Google hangout or skype or something to play over video chat, with the DM's camera viewing the table from above.

Jester David said:
How many people are we talking about? Would there be enough people to justify adding that kind of feature? (i.e. a few hundred)
Is there really strong demand for random pick-up groups with strangers?

Enough that I literally never logged on during normal hours to see an empty lobby. Ie, I always found a group or players.

Sometimes I would play with a group for a few hours just to test out a new character idea I'd just built in the CB, or gather players to play a 2 hour adventure to test out some concepts for an adventure I was going to run later for my regular group.

I'm lucky enough that a VTT is, for me, purely a bonus, so it doesn't hurt my game to not have it, but I completely get CT's desire to return to the integrated simplicity and convenience of the 4e tools, and disappointment that to get the full set of features and services with the 5e tools, he has to use multiple suites of tools.

I mean, seriously, if I'm paying for Beyond, I'm sure as hell not going to also pay for roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, and none of the free VTTs, IMO, are worth the time investment to master the use of. Especially since the main appeal to me, is to import from a CB and encounter builder, rather than having to input the info manually, or track it outside the VTT.

I get why wotc is going this way, but I would rather they buyout fantasy grounds or something, or get FG to integrate with Curse's tools so that users can pay a subscription that covers both, buy content packs once, and import/export seamlessly between the vtt, character builder, and encounter builder tools, all connected to a virtual lobby that is tied to the official community service(s) for the game.

For me, at least, a VTT by itself, without any of that, or even without most of that, just isn't worth any money, ever.

about dev costs and subscriptions: When the 5e playtest was fairly new, and the last final decline of DDI subs hadn't happened yet, DDI had around 80k subscribers.

Even if we assume most 5e users won't sub, there are enough that it should be fairly easy to get around that number. At 10$/mo, that's 800k a month. 9.6 million a year.

Even if they make the baseline 10$, and let you do a year sub for less per month, I doubt Beyond subs will be as low as DDI subs were in the early days of the Next playtest, so this should be a very profitable venture. As long as they don't screw it up somehow.

What I'd like to see is something like how Dungeons and Dragons Online works. You can sub for 15$/mo, getting access to all content and most of the major account upgrades, plus some free turbine points. Or you can purchase specific content and account upgrades individually, and there are often sales and bundles, and if you play for free, it's still a pretty full featured game, you just don't get all races and classes, but there is plenty of content for months of free play, and the upgrades that don't come free aren't particularly necessary.

the equivalent here would be 10/mo for all content, and all features, then a la carte purchasing of content packs and account feature upgrades, and finally a free version that works fine, and has the important features built in.

Edit: oh, and DDO has a yearly sub that works out to like 10$/mo, rather than the normal 15. I'd like to see something like that. DDI had the same deal, IIRC.

daplunk · Mar 14, 2017

R P Davis said:
It absolutely is. People who think TTRPGs are expensive make me shake my head at how indescribably parsimonious some people can be. They clearly have no other hobbies. At all. Except maybe reading library books.

Core Books: PHB, DMG, MM, Volo's Guide To Monsters, Sword Coasts Guide, Adventures
3rd Party Books: Tome of Beasts, Fifth Edition Foes, Book of Lost Spells
Extras: Pencils, Erasers, Dice, More Dice
Minis: Bones I, Bones II, Bones III, Bones IV (Its coming!), Conan Board Game, D&D Board Games,
Mini Storage: Shelving + Mirrors
DM Software: Realm Works, Hero Lab, Campaign Cartographer +3 (+addons)
Table: Projector + Mirror
3d Terrain: Bucket loads of Hirst Molds, Hydrastone, paint, paint brushes

Now obviously not all of this is necessary. But this hobby can absolutely be be expensive for those that want it to be.

doctorbadwolf · Mar 14, 2017

R P Davis said:
It absolutely is. People who think TTRPGs are expensive make me shake my head at how indescribably parsimonious some people can be. They clearly have no other hobbies. At all. Except maybe reading library books.

It's the least-expensive hobby I've ever had.

Cheers,

Bob

www.r-p-davis.com

I get your point, and agree, but here are some counter examples and arguments:

The music example doesn't have to be that expensive. Second hand gear usually works fine, and drums are pretty expensive compared to other rock instruments. You can get a perfectly good guitar for a couple hundred, and a lot of the other equipment can be gotten second hand or cheaper than that, as well. Most hobby drummers I know don't spend near that much on most of their gear. Pretty only the guys I know who are touring regularly due to decent regional success, and they spent that money over the course of years, upgrading their gear bit by bit.

Sports, you also chose expensive examples. Any jackhole can play soccer for less than it costs to get started with DnD.

Baseball is a bit more, but most of the additional cost is easily spread out over more people. Basketball is just as cheap as soccer. Football depends on what level you're playing at, but if it is truly hobby level, we're talking touch/flag, which is gonna be cheaper than DND, again.

Sword-fighting is a good example, but when I was doing the SCA, in a group that took it a lot more seriously than many do, and practiced 3+ times a week for 3-4 hours at a time, the most expensive gear were your helmet, and the shield, unless someone you know has a good source of materials for the shield, or you don't fight with one.

So, ignoring loaner gear, and getting right into the point where you buy your own stuff, you're talking maybe twice the startup cost of DnD? Sure, you can spend a lot more, but I have friends who spend easily 1k$ or more on any given edition of DnD, not to mention the minis and stuff that get used for all our games. I can name a friend who has probably spent 2 grand or more on TTRPGs over the last ten years, and that isn't counting the huge suitcase/tacklebox thing the height of a 8 year old he has full of minis for DnD and Star Wars. And he doesn't even get into indie games.

I know I've spent more on TTRPGs than anything else except maybe books, in my lifetime.

Corpsetaker · Mar 14, 2017

If you gave me a CB, Encounter Builder, and a VTT all rolled into one, I would gladly pay 20.00 per month. I don't even want anything fancy, I just want the tools to play and a lobby that allows me to do quick pick up games.

Corpsetaker · Mar 14, 2017

daplunk said:
Core Books: PHB, DMG, MM, Volo's Guide To Monsters, Sword Coasts Guide, Adventures
3rd Party Books: Tome of Beasts, Fifth Edition Foes, Book of Lost Spells
Extras: Pencils, Erasers, Dice, More Dice
Minis: Bones I, Bones II, Bones III, Bones IV (Its coming!), Conan Board Game, D&D Board Games,
Mini Storage: Shelving + Mirrors
DM Software: Realm Works, Hero Lab, Campaign Cartographer +3 (+addons)
Table: Projector + Mirror
3d Terrain: Bucket loads of Hirst Molds, Hydrastone, paint, paint brushes

Now obviously not all of this is necessary. But this hobby can absolutely be be expensive for those that want it to be.

Not to mention Fantasy Grounds plus all the extras packs you may need to buy and now this D&D Beyond.

dropbear8mybaby · Mar 14, 2017

DEFCON 1 said:
But you can be darn sure that if it makes the most sense for Curse to use the subscription model, and they are fairly certain there are enough people in the hundreds of thousands out there playing D&D that *are* willing to pay a monthly subscription... then they're going to do it happily.

Since WotC have stats on just how many people are willing to pay a subscription fee, and I'm fairly certain it was never in the hundreds of thousands, the price they ask for and the quality of the product, is very much a concern for both them and for consumers. IIRC, there was something like 10,000 subscribers to DDI at its height. The figures are out there but it's been long enough that I can't remember the details and can't be bothered to look. But I'm sure it wasn't anywhere close to even a 100,000, let alone hundreds of thousands.

Point is, I think people do care. I think they care very much. And I think you're the outlier in this instance, not the majority.

doctorbadwolf said:
AFAIK, they've always tried to do it by paying a company of experts. They've just had the worst luck imaginable doing it. I mean, the 4e one had the head of the company building it die before completion! And the rest of the company didn't really know what exactly he was doing, and couldn't just smoothly finish his work! Hardly a result of anyone not having their act together.

I wouldn't call it bad luck, I would call it bad management on the part of Hasbro. They put people into roles who have no understanding of the things they're in charge of. They expect one person to know everything about everything and pay them diddly to do it. So you get people who know nothing about project management of a digital product, initiating tenders and projects for digital products. And so in turn you get companies who take on projects that are far beyond their capabilities. Trapdoor quite obviously bit off far more than they could chew, and the same happened for the 3D virtual table program during 4e.

As for the guy who died, I think that was actually a suicide and he wasn't the head of the company but rather a project lead or other programming position within the company. I can't recall exactly.

doctorbadwolf said:
Unless they have a way of stopping folks from using the "create x" feature to effectively copy and paste phb options into the program, I rather doubt it.

If they allow homebrew at all, then you can absolutely guarantee that there will be PHB clone files out in the wild. I think this is why they're putting homebrew behind the paywall.

doctorbadwolf said:
about dev costs and subscriptions: When the 5e playtest was fairly new, and the last final decline of DDI subs hadn't happened yet, DDI had around 80k subscribers.

Are you sure about that? I thought it was much lower than that.

Corpsetaker · Mar 14, 2017

R P Davis said:
It absolutely is. People who think TTRPGs are expensive make me shake my head at how indescribably parsimonious some people can be. They clearly have no other hobbies. At all. Except maybe reading library books.

Here's the main issue.

I've been a gamer for many years and I have spent tons of money on gaming products. Someone who says RPG's aren't expensive make it clearly obvious they don't know what they are talking about.

Anyway, that's beside the point.

I can bet you here and now that people would gladly spend more money for products they can actually hold in their hand versus a product they will never truly own. Gaming books are a one time investment that can be used for years to come, digital stuff doesn't always get that far. Just look at Sword Coast Legends, that game was supposed to be big and was supposed to see support for years to come. Well the game actually caused the company (N-Space) to go bust and the company that moved in to pick up the pieces has stopped giving any support to the game so it's basically dead in the water.

Micro-transactions add up when stacked on to other things such as household bills, your physical book collection, minis, etc.... To be honest, I don't enjoy having to deal with multiple companies either, I want everything all in one nice package which I will gladly pay good money for.

daplunk · Mar 14, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
Not to mention Fantasy Grounds plus all the extras packs you may need to buy and now this D&D Beyond.

See i don't get this. I keep seeing the VTT crowd posting with "why doesn't this do anything for me".

If you are playing via FG or Roll20 then this tool is not designed for you.

You can do this on FG or Roll20. You're meant to do this on FG or Roll20. If you are playing via the internet via either of these tools there is no need to buy this all again unless its your personal preference to have access to your character when you are away from your PC.

This is a competitor for Hero Lab / OrcPub / ForgedAnvil / Fifth Edition Character Sheet right now and from what I've seen they want to take on Realm Works / Obsidian Portal as well.

This is a tool for the many thousands of us who use digital tools at the table to make the management of our games easier. This is not intended to replicate the whole process, which is what Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds are doing. There are many thousands of us who would never consider using FG or Roll20 simply because it is a VTT. We already have tables and don't need that extra functionality.

We do however want character creators, combat managers, npc generators, monster generators, ability to manage PC sheets across the cloud.

I have almost everything I need in Realm Works and Hero Labs. Except, it doesn't have a 5e license, it doesn't support android and it doesn't have the ability to view my characters sheets via the cloud.

I tell you what though. I will be watching Lone Wolf Development & D&D Beyond very closely.

I doubt D&D Beyond will be able to compete with Realm Works in the short or medium term. And for me Realm Works is looking to be the tool that will drive my other decisions.

Kabouter Games · Mar 14, 2017

daplunk said:
Core Books: PHB, DMG, MM, Volo's Guide To Monsters, Sword Coasts Guide, Adventures
3rd Party Books: Tome of Beasts, Fifth Edition Foes, Book of Lost Spells
Extras: Pencils, Erasers, Dice, More Dice
Minis: Bones I, Bones II, Bones III, Bones IV (Its coming!), Conan Board Game, D&D Board Games,
Mini Storage: Shelving + Mirrors
DM Software: Realm Works, Hero Lab, Campaign Cartographer +3 (+addons)
Table: Projector + Mirror
3d Terrain: Bucket loads of Hirst Molds, Hydrastone, paint, paint brushes

Now obviously not all of this is necessary. But this hobby can absolutely be be expensive for those that want it to be.

doctorbadwolf said:
I get your point, and agree, but here are some counter examples and arguments:

The music example doesn't have to be that expensive. Second hand gear usually works fine, and drums are pretty expensive compared to other rock instruments. You can get a perfectly good guitar for a couple hundred, and a lot of the other equipment can be gotten second hand or cheaper than that, as well. Most hobby drummers I know don't spend near that much on most of their gear. Pretty only the guys I know who are touring regularly due to decent regional success, and they spent that money over the course of years, upgrading their gear bit by bit.

Sports, you also chose expensive examples. Any jackhole can play soccer for less than it costs to get started with DnD.

Baseball is a bit more, but most of the additional cost is easily spread out over more people. Basketball is just as cheap as soccer. Football depends on what level you're playing at, but if it is truly hobby level, we're talking touch/flag, which is gonna be cheaper than DND, again.

Sword-fighting is a good example, but when I was doing the SCA, in a group that took it a lot more seriously than many do, and practiced 3+ times a week for 3-4 hours at a time, the most expensive gear were your helmet, and the shield, unless someone you know has a good source of materials for the shield, or you don't fight with one.

So, ignoring loaner gear, and getting right into the point where you buy your own stuff, you're talking maybe twice the startup cost of DnD? Sure, you can spend a lot more, but I have friends who spend easily 1k$ or more on any given edition of DnD, not to mention the minis and stuff that get used for all our games. I can name a friend who has probably spent 2 grand or more on TTRPGs over the last ten years, and that isn't counting the huge suitcase/tacklebox thing the height of a 8 year old he has full of minis for DnD and Star Wars. And he doesn't even get into indie games.

I know I've spent more on TTRPGs than anything else except maybe books, in my lifetime.

You guys are both missing the point.

Nobody needs to spend a single, shiny (or dull) coppery cent to play D&D. Not. One. Cent.

Sure, you can buy all that stuff for 5e. But you don't have to. I was running D&D Next for the playtest, then with with the free PDFs from Wizards, long before I bought the PHB and DMG. I still don't have a MM, because I have the SRD. It's not as though you must have all of that folderol before you can play. That is simply not true. As both of you have noted, D&D can be expensive, but only if you want it to be. When one complains about pricing of impulse-buy stuff one doesn't at all need in order to do enjoy the game, I can't help but say, "Dude, really? Don't want it, don't buy it. You don't need it, so what's your beef?"

In order to participate in any of the hobbies I can bring to mind or that Dr Bad Wolf lists, you must - MUST, there is no option - spend something to do anything with the activity, to even begin.

That is the point. You can play D&D for FREE for EVER, for the rest of your life, after never having spent a single penny on it to begin with. There is no other game-based hobby I'm aware of where you can do that.

The SCA, for example, has gotten a lot better about its armor requirements. You can't get a helm for $100 anymore, at least one that a responsible marshal will approve. Besides, you're still talking about all the other armor as well as the helmet. That's a couple hundred bucks before you can even authorize, because you can't use loaner gear forever. And since authorization is the beginning, you have to spend money. What we're talking about here is someone who has everything he needs to fight, like one of the Paul Chen monstrosities, bitching because he can't afford a Windrose bascinet, implying or outright saying that Windrose's pricing is somehow out of whack.

That's a second point - "I can't afford it" is not a legitimate criticism of a product's price, especially when your explanation of why you can't afford it shows you can't really afford to do much at all. I'm sorry for you, because I've been there, and it sucks. But it by no means proves that access to the app in question on a subscription basis is somehow objectionable.

When you add it up, it makes bitching about expense petty and whiny, an exercise of "O! Alas! Look at poor lil' ol' me, too poor to afford this luxury item I don't really need to enjoy my hobby!" I find that a little preposterous.

Cheers,

Bob

daplunk · Mar 14, 2017

R P Davis said:
You guys are both missing the point.

Nobody needs to spend a single, shiny (or dull) coppery cent to play D&D. Not. One. Cent.

Sure, you can buy all that stuff for 5e. But you don't have to.

Pretty sure I covered it actually with

Now obviously not all of this is necessary. But this hobby can absolutely be be expensive for those that want it to be.

The point being that it's a choice, it can be a bloody expensive hobby, or not, up to the individual.

[UPDATED!] D&D Beyond: An Official D&D Digital Toolset & Character Builder

doctorbadwolf

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