D&D 4E Updating Tomb of Horrors to 4e...and 4e seems to wussy.

[UltimaGabe]

I guess something needs to be clarified- YES, the Tomb of Horrors could be remade in 4e and be made incredibly fun, memorable, and challenging. NO, it would not be the same adventure. The Tomb of Horrors, as it was designed, as it was meant to be played, cannot exist in 4e because the entire dynamic of the game has changed since 1e.

Yes, there's a plethora of changes you could make to make it more challenging (remove the ability to rest, add in interesting traps, blah blah blah), but in the end, it would NOT be the same adventure. The entire point of the Tomb of Horrors was that Gary Gygax wanted to make an adventure that nobody could survive on their first playthrough. You can add in all sorts of bobs and whistles to recreate this in 4e, but the core adventure would be almost unrecognizable. You could just change all of the traps to insta-kills, but in that case, why are you playing 4e to begin with?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am also of the opinion Tomb of horror, though beeing the antithesis of the 4th edition "spirit" (lets call it that way), is easily translated to 4th edition.

As mentioned above, no other edition allows any character combination to go through the dungeon without buffing to hel and rest after each room. Simply because a: you can´t really buff yourself before entering a room, b: healing surge mechanic allows you to carry on.

I learned from my limited experience, that as a DM you may be cruel and hard to your PCs and you know you don´t have to stress your imagination, why everyone can be healed by that little cheap magic stick... (and why normal people can´t profit from such)

every trap you survive makes you more weary, less lucky and mmore tired... they usually don´t hurt you...
If they do, take away healing surges permanently...

or to be really unfair, just don´t allow extended rests inside this dungeon, and see how deadly 4th edition is.

 

[LostSoul]

I am also of the opinion Tomb of horror, though beeing the antithesis of the 4th edition "spirit" (lets call it that way), is easily translated to 4th edition.

Yeah.

That falling block that was "Save vs. Petrification or die" (I imagine, I never owned the original) - stat it up like this:

+x vs. Reflex; the target is killed.

If you want to be a nice DM, try this:

+x vs. Reflex; the target is reduced to 0 HP and there is no line of sight or line of effect to his square.

Then the PCs have a few rounds to try and get to the PC before he fails his death saves.

 

[Falstyr]

It would be nice if you would actually be honest.

First, given the number of postings here and elsewhere about TPKs in 4e, your statement that you can 'hardly die' must either be viewed as woefully uninformed, deliberately false, or as a claim that many posters on multiple boards are lying through their teeth about TPKs.

First I don't lie. Second I'm not talking about other people's experience, but my own. I had 1 character near death at lvl1 while there rest was still ok. Against Irontooth two players were close to dying, but other than that everyone was still ok. In later adventures we had a few more times when 1 or 2 characters were close to death while the rest was still mainly unharmed. Those were the "tough" encounters in adventures while cruising through the rest before those moments. And these experiences are from a game that I Dm and two others where I am a player.

With the ton of short rests, potions, healing surges, traps that are hardly hazardous and what not it has become more difficult to kill players then it was in previous editions.

 

[LostSoul]

With the ton of short rests, potions, healing surges, traps that are hardly hazardous and what not it has become more difficult to kill players then it was in previous editions.

That's not true; it's easy to kill PCs. It's just that the level of challenge suggested by the DMG doesn't often lead to those kinds of encounters, and easy access to rests makes it even worse.

Let the players pick the level of the challenge they'll face (and thus the level of reward) and you'll see more deaths. And also more awesome victories.

 

[theodudek]

I am curious about this too... I actually wrote about it on my blog awhile ago. The spirit of 4e is obviously much more about "balance" than any previous edition of D&D, but I guess actually Tomb of Horrors could be even *deadlier* in 4e due to the lack of saving throws in the old sense... basically, it was always a nearly impossible module, now it's just even blunter about it? -_- As long as the players know what they're in for...

One thing that should definitely be preserved in any adaptation of "Tomb" is the many dead ends and false routes into the tomb, as well as the weird (and often purposefully misleading) puzzles. These are elements which work equally well in any edition of D&D.

 

[Flipguarder]

That's not true; it's easy to kill PCs. It's just that the level of challenge suggested by the DMG doesn't often lead to those kinds of encounters, and easy access to rests makes it even worse.

First off, just a tip, rests can be as hard to obtain as you want.

But I do agree that the dmg guide does lead to easy mode encounters.

I decided to attempt to give my pcs a first encounter that would likely kill them. I threw two solos (level - 1) and a skirmisher (level +2) at them. I got three of them bloodied, and one went unconscious for 1 round.

Few encounters later I tried another with a solo (level +1, who was Voldemort by the way), a pc level skirmisher (i like skirmishers), and 9 minions (and Flipguarder style minions, with 36 hp at level 9). I once again, only made one pc unconscious for one round.

Next real hard one Im gonna throw at them is 4 elites.

 

[FurryFighter]

I guess something needs to be clarified- YES, the Tomb of Horrors could be remade in 4e and be made incredibly fun, memorable, and challenging. NO, it would not be the same adventure. The Tomb of Horrors, as it was designed, as it was meant to be played, cannot exist in 4e because the entire dynamic of the game has changed since 1e.

Yes, there's a plethora of changes you could make to make it more challenging (remove the ability to rest, add in interesting traps, blah blah blah), but in the end, it would NOT be the same adventure. The entire point of the Tomb of Horrors was that Gary Gygax wanted to make an adventure that nobody could survive on their first playthrough. You can add in all sorts of bobs and whistles to recreate this in 4e, but the core adventure would be almost unrecognizable. You could just change all of the traps to insta-kills, but in that case, why are you playing 4e to begin with?

Well, because a person doesnt have 1e books, or perhaps they just started 4e? If ToH can be made the same in 4e as 1e as you say it can, then why not play it in 4e? Why not play it in 1e? Then its only a question of preference. Otherwise, if it can be made the same, where's the issue?

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, because a person doesnt have 1e books, or perhaps they just started 4e? If ToH can be made the same in 4e as 1e as you say it can, then why not play it in 4e? Why not play it in 1e? Then its only a question of preference. Otherwise, if it can be made the same, where's the issue?

Because just because ToH did what it did well, that doesn't mean what it did was appropriate or good for the game in general.

While ToH had strong appeal to a certain subset of the roleplaying community, for others it was an example of where D&D was failing as an rpg, and it caused them to move on to other RPGs.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Because just because ToH did what it did well, that doesn't mean what it did was appropriate or good for the game in general.

While ToH had strong appeal to a certain subset of the roleplaying community, for others it was an example of where D&D was failing as an rpg, and it caused them to move on to other RPGs.

This is more or less the main point I tried (though likely failed) to make. The Tomb of Horrors was made for one purpose, and one purpose only- to kill anyone and everyone who played it. Later editions have tried to make an actual adventure out of it- one that the players are technically supposed to complete- and that's why they've been terrible. The Tomb of Horrors is not a very good dungeon. It's a deathtrap, as it was meant to be. Making it anything but a deathtrap is changing the entire concept of the adventure.

It can be updated, but not while keeping the spirit of the adventure. Not that changing the spirit of the adventure is a bad thing- like I said, it's not a very good dungeon- but anyone who changes it (for the better, or worse) should be aware of what they're doing.