D&D 5E Using Pipes of Haunting with Beguiling Twist

[ECMO3]

I found an interesting phenomenon when using Pipes of Haunting with a Fey Wanderer Ranger. The Fey Wanderer gets beguiling twist which reads in part:

In addition, whenever you or a creature you can see within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw against being charmed or frightened, you can use your reaction to force a different creature you can see within 120 feet of you to make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC.

Pipes of Haunting has a unique ability that lets all non-hostile creatures automatically succeed on their save:

You can use an action to play them and expend 1 charge to create an eerie, spellbinding tune. Each creature within 30 feet of you that hears you play must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of you for 1 minute. If you wish, all creatures in the area that aren't hostile toward you automatically succeed on the saving throw. A creature that fails the saving throw can repeat it at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. A creature that succeeds on its saving throw is immune to the effect of these pipes for 24 hours.

The pipes don't say you can have them not affect creatures not hostile but rather that such creatures "automatically succeed" RAW I think this would cause a trigger for beguiling twist every time you use the horn as long as there is an ally within 30 feet of you. So I could blow the horn frightening an enemy and then immediately use beguiling twist off an allies "automatic succes" to charm him too. Also if they save against the pipes they are immune to the piopes, but not to beguiling Twist. So if an enemy makes the initial save against the pipes. I could make them save against being frightened again by using Beguiling Twist triggering off of an allies automatic save.

Is this a correct interpretation? Would you allow it?

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

This trick should work!

 

[Stormonu]

Not quite. This is obviously unintended consequences. I wouldn't allow Beguiling Twist to trigger on the automatic allied saving throws (if the Ranger didn't choose to automatically allow allies to save, I might consider it) - I'd just treat that as them being excluded from the item's effects. But I'd allow the Beguiling Twist to trigger on any enemies that made the save.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I'd allow it based on the wording but I'm not convinced that it is even that great of a strategy. Can you comment on why you'd want an enemy to be both frightened and charmed?

 

[MarkB]

Unless you can interchange the allies who are within range of you when you use the pipes, you'll only be able to do this trick once per day. Once your allies auto-succeed at their first save, they're immune to the pipes for 24 hours thereafter, and would not need to make saves at all when exposed to them a second time.

In any case, the pipes have three charges, and pulling this off three times a day seems unremarkable.

 

[ECMO3]

In any case, the pipes have three charges, and pulling this off three times a day seems unremarkable.

It is actually pretty significant for a couple reasons

First if you are fighting a single enemy, normally a single enemy invalidates Beguiling twist because you can't bounce it against the same guy that saves, this gives two big advantages and a 3rd small one:

1. Makes Boss save twice against Frightened: Frightened is powerful and this would mean that enemy would have to save twice to avoid being frightened initially because while a successful save makes him immune to the pipes it does not make him immune to beguiling twist frighten. So if the big bad makes his initial save against the pipes, he immediately has to save again against the twist from the allies save against the pipes.

2. Combines charmed and frightened: If the BBEG fails the initial save against the pipes you can both charm and frighten him. This is extremely debilitating. Charm prevents him from targeting the ranger at all and frightened prevents him from approaching the ranger. This means as long as both of those are in place the Ranger can just go in and attack and then move to keep him from advancing on allies. He gets no opportunity attacks on the ranger leaving his space for position (charmed), can't attack the Ranger (charmed) and can't go around the Ranger (frightened).

3. Beguiling Twist is the gift that keeps on giving. As long as you have a reaction when one enemy saves you can twist another. This bounces the frightened (or charmed) effect from enemy to enemy. So for example 3 bad guys when you use the pipes - two are frightened, one makes his save. You twist the guy that makes his save off an auto save and he gets frightened too - you have 3 frightened. Then on round 2 one of the guys saves - you twist charm another, now you have 2 frightened and one of the frightened guys is also charmed. Then round 3 that guy that is charmed saves agaisnt charmed, you twist that back to the first guy who is no longer frightened. Now you have 3 frightened again ...... Also because charmed condition does not generally hurt party members you can even do this when fighting a single enemy and "park" a charmed condition on an ally to twist later. Lets say you charm and frighten a single enemy as in "2" above. Then he saves against the frighten at the end of one of his turns - you twist that on to an ally as a charm. You want him to fail this save as he was not going to attack you anyway, so he is not negatively affecting him but several turns later when he succeeds on his save, you twist frighten back on the big guy.

 

[ECMO3]

I'd allow it based on the wording but I'm not convinced that it is even that great of a strategy. Can you comment on why you'd want an enemy to be both frightened and charmed?

This combination is huge. He can't move closer to you and he can't attack you and you have complete freedom on positioning. You control where he can and can't move and you can move wherever you need to so you can make that happen.

Frightened alone is powerful in terms of positioning, adding charmed lets the Ranger do it with near immunity.

Also unlike most charms, beguiling twist is not broken by attacking or damaging the charmed individual. Damaging him doesn't even give him another save.

If you have played a max wisdom Fey Wanderer into tier 3/4 when Fey Reinforcements comes online you can see how powerful these conditions are when comined.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

One of the main roles of a human GM is to overrule when RAW has stupid and/or unintended consequences.

I would imagine most DMs would not allow this.