Using Rods for wizard spells? Forked Thread: Swordmage Implement with Wizard powers?

[Keenath]

I imagine that they want to limit the possibility of unexpected combinations of powers and properties. Being able to use Orb of Imposition with a Warlock power is something that might need to be considered when making the power if they could be used together.

You can't do that anyway. OOI says you can "designate one creature you have cast a wizard spell upon..." or "...extend the duration
of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell..."

Even if you can add your orbs +3 to a warlock power, you can't use OOI to bump its save.


That said, to the OP:
No, you can't mix-n-match implements like that, by the rules as written. The Wizard "Implement" line says, "A wizard wielding a magic orb, staff, or wand can add its enhancement bonus to ... wizard powers ... that have the implement keyword."

The warlock's text reads similarly: "A warlock wielding a magic rod or wand can add its enhancement bonus to ... warlock powers ... that have the implement keyword."

Similarly, Pact Initiate says "you can use a rod, a wand, or a pact blade as an implement when using a warlock power" and Arcane Initiate says "you can use an orb, a staff, or a wand as an implement when using a wizard power".

In neither case can one class use another class's implement on its own powers. Wizard Implement powers require wizard implements; Warlock Implement powers require warlock implements. A multiclass of the two would be well advised to go with a wand.

Or future rod properties would need to be evaluated on the basis that they might become useable with a fireball or other Wizard powers. But since the rules say that Warlock implements can only be used with Warlock powers and Wizard implements with Wizard powers, it's one less place to get tripped up.

Right. I agree that this is the reason for the ruling, and that you shouldn't houserule around it.

For example, consider the Rod of First Blood. It's good for a warlock to deal bonus damage to undamaged creatures. But a wizard who can open combat with a fireball can multiply that damage a huge number of times!*

And like Tale says -- it's just adding another layer of possible exploits to the game.


* Note that a 'lock with a Dilletante or multiclass feats still couldn't use that method to multiply his damage that, because it says "When you hit a creature ... with an attack using this rod", and due to the rules I quoted above, you can't use a rod to enhance a fireball, no matter what.

 

[Keenath]

What version of the books are you getting these from? My version explicitly spells out "cleric class powers, as well as cleric paragon path powers" under cleric, and likewise for paladins.

What he quoted was the Rules Compendium text, which is obviously not correct.

The book clearly says "... add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of paladin powers ... that have the implement keyword."

 

[Xyl]

What he quoted was the Rules Compendium text, which is obviously not correct.

The book clearly says "... add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of paladin powers ... that have the implement keyword."

It might be a preview of upcoming errata.

 

[Keenath]

It might be a preview of upcoming errata.

I doubt it, because the Compendium version would allow for a Paladin/Wizard to use his holy symbol with wizard spells, and similar silliness.

 

[DracoSuave]

It's pretty clear tho, in the descriptions for the items that each item-list is designed for one or two kinds of classes, and certainly not for every class. Holy symbols, for example, are not really designed to work with warlock abilities. Orbs and Staffs are clearly designed to work with the wizard and artificer spell lists. Rods are all designed for either Warlocks or Artificers. The ability to utilize implements goes well beyond simply getting the +N bonus, but the powers and properties of the weapons have to be taken into account as well.

 

[Xyl]

I doubt it, because the Compendium version would allow for a Paladin/Wizard to use his holy symbol with wizard spells, and similar silliness.

You call it silliness, I call it character possibilities.

 

[DracoSuave]

You call it silliness, I call it character possibilities.

Not all possibilities are good for the game... and not all possibilites help the flavor of the classes. The abilities that one can get from the implements one is permitted to have are as important to the identity of a spellcaster as the different weapons are to the identity of a martial character. I mean, you could -have- wizards or warlocks use the symbol of radiance in your games if you like.... but it doesn't suit the role nor the flavor of either class to be turning their radiant spells into healing surge enablers. You -could- have clerics going about with orbs of drastic resolutions if you like... but that's more of a wizardly schtick.

And seriously, what can a paladin, cleric, or even a wizard of the spiral tower do with a rod of reaving, harvest, or the pyre? If you open up implements to all and sundry, you then can't -make- implements that were focused on singular character classes like rods and orbs, because otherwise you'd have to consider the effect on other class's powers, and the balance on the game.