Vampire The Masquerade D20?

[Dyir]

I'm a big fan of the setting of the World of Darkness, but I never could get into the game mechanics (I don't like rolling multiple dice for success rolls). Recently, I've really gotten into Mutants & Masterminds, and discovered that it can be used really easily to build characters from WoD. Vampire disciplines can be created by modifying existing powers, Mage magic is really easy to emulate with the Sorcery power (or modifying it to have nine Spheres instead of the categories in the book), and so forth. In addition, being a vampire or a werewolf or a wraith or some other supernatural race works well as a template: a collection of feats and minor powers that everyone has access to. One thing that I've done to keep the power level more in line with the actual Storyteller system is to use Power Level 5 instead of the default of 10; this makes characters far weaker than comic-book heroes, while still possessing some kind of super-powers. Currently, I'm running a modern Mage/Dark Age: Fae game that is working quite well using this system.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Personally I think that V:TX would be a bad idea as a D20 game. D20 is entirely too rules heavy, something the Storyteller system has tried to get away from. A hit point system just would foul the whole thing up... it is supposed to be lethal no matter how experienced your character is.

D20 has shown that it is easily flexible enough to accommodate very different kinds of play. You need look no further than the VP/WP system of D20 Star Wars or the hit point system of CoC d20 to find an example of instantly lethal hit point systems (to me CoC d20 was the ultimate test of the systems capabilities and it succeeded).

-Zarrock

 

[buzz]

It's weird - Vampire is apparently the 2nd most popular game after D&D, and while you find many D&D clones, there are no Vampire clones.

Aren't there?

• All other WoD games
• Nephilim
• In Nomine
• Kult
• Whispering Vault
• Everlasting
• Witchraft
• Nightbane
• Unknown Armies

I'm probably missing a few. It seems to me like V:tM started a whole trend of horror-themed "angst-ridden badass" RPGs. Or at least ushered in the rise of horror RPGs that weren't Call of Cthulhu.

 

[buzz]

(I'm working on a follow-up file, A Handful Of Vampires, illustrating some possibilities at different power levels, with fully statted NPCs and background info.)

I don't suppose that there's a possibility that this whole line would get collected into a print product, would there? I'd be really interested in that.

 

[LeapingShark]

Lord of the Night: Vampires by Bottled Imp Games is an amazing d20 product. I picked it up to add some spice to a vampire opponent for a D&D game, and found a treasure. Check out some of the reviews (it has a perfect 5 star rating) for more details about the contents (too much to post here).

 

[Sorren]

Gurps Advantages, Hero Talents: d20 calls them feats. Also, Merits and Flaws were out with the 1st Edition Player's guide in 1992, before the Skills & Powers came out. So not check.

Defense. White Wolf always (until Orpheus) had this little skill called Dodge. You could always abort to Dodge and it did basically the same thing. So again, not check.

Move and Attack in the same combat round. You could always do that, it just cost you die pool. You could move up to a yard for every die you sacrificed in you pool, this comes from 1st edition vampire and werewolf. So again, not check.

And you made your argument against skills. So, not check

And templates, where did that come from. I have been keeping up with the same stuff you have and haven't see it anywhere. And they may have a different meaning (templates in d6 Star Wars are nothing like templates in d20).

I don't have time to address your points now, maybe Monday, but the templates are in the 2nd part of the demo scenerio on their website.

 

[Professor Phobos]

Aren't there?

• All other WoD games
• Nephilim
• In Nomine
• Kult
• Whispering Vault
• Everlasting
• Witchraft
• Nightbane
• Unknown Armies

I'm probably missing a few. It seems to me like V:tM started a whole trend of horror-themed "angst-ridden badass" RPGs. Or at least ushered in the rise of horror RPGs that weren't Call of Cthulhu.

I am only familiar with Witchcraft and Unknown Armies (and Kult, but an older edition) and no, they are not
A.About "Angst-Ridden Badasses" (this is particularly laughable in the case of Unknown Armies) and B. "Vampire Clones."

The others I have no idea about. The first horror RPG was Call of Cthulhu- Unknown Armies in particular owes much more to CoC than it owes to Vampire. Witchcraft is superficially very similiar to the World of Darkness but it differs in certain very important aspects.

 

[Professor Phobos]

D20 has shown that it is easily flexible enough to accommodate very different kinds of play. You need look no further than the VP/WP system of D20 Star Wars or the hit point system of CoC d20 to find an example of instantly lethal hit point systems (to me CoC d20 was the ultimate test of the systems capabilities and it succeeded).

-Zarrock

While I do not dispute that D20 Cthulhu was pretty good, I don't think it succeeded as well as it could have. My primary disgruntlements are in...

1. The feat list is still geared mostly toward combat. There aren't any academic feats- stuff like "Jack of All Tongues" and "Speed Reader" would have been far more in-genre than a dozen different kinds of "Shot..." I'm not sure there was much value in the feat list that was given, considering that the alternative- Cthulhu themed feats, would have been cooler.

2. Call of Cthulhu has desperately needed a "Flaw" type system for years now. With all the ancient blood curses, vulnerability to possession, poverty, minority status, bad eyesight, and old age that Lovecraft characters suffered from, this seems like an oversight. I know some of you are going to raise the "But that invites munckinism!" card, but, well, I hold very, very little stock in that argument, particularly for a proper Call of Cthulhu adaption.

3. "Offensive" and "Defensive" options make absolutely no sense. I mean, seriously. What does it mean if I'm an "Offenisive" librarian? Or a defensive one? There is no benefit, nothing gained from their inclusion.

4. Levels are still quirky and feel needless, as are increasing hit points. The Massive Damage save is a nice change, but quite frankly it seems like a patch on a damage system that would not otherwise work at all. Hit points at CON and a simple experience system (much like Mutants and Masterminds) would have been a little more reflective of classic CoC gameplay. These are not people whose experiences made them "tougher" in the vein of pulp heroes, but people whose primary way to improve themselves was through learning and honing skills. Knowledge is the secret to survival in Call of Cthulhu, not ever-increasing Base Attack Bonus.

I mean, just think about it. Why would Dr. Armitage's ability to attack another person have increased after the events of the Dunwich Horror?

5. I thought the art was crap. (This is just a personal bug. Nothing to see here folks, move along...)

6. The Cthulhu Mythos skill is worth nearly five times as much in the D20 version as it is in the BRP version, and yet has the same effect on maximum sanity. This means that characters can learn more of the Cthulhu Mythos with no ill effect than they could before.

I think most of the praise Call of Cthulhu D20 gets is not that it is a rockin' adaption, but that it really didn't suck nearly as much as it could have. I think it has been coasting on "Not being a miserable failure" for some time now.

 

[eyebeams]

I think what you did find, during Vampire's height in the mid-late nineties, was not people copying the Vampire genre, but rather companies imitating White Wolf's design ethic.

Namely, creating "storytelling" games (never RPGs) with big "meta-plot" for story-based gaming; lots of DM railroading, psuedo-intellectual style, a general emphasis on image, etc. etc.
This eventually led to product lines stuffed with metaplot (Heavy Gear, Brave New World, Deadlands) where you had to buy hundreds of books to be able to keep up with the story and get the next little "secret" of the setting, imitating WW's marketing ethic. It also led to less memorable, unplayable games that were trying to imitate the "seriousness" of White Wolf.

Eventually both of these contributed to the backlash against gaming that lost us countless fans and nearly collapsed the industry.

Nisarg

RPG sales started to fall rapidly (as opposed to their current slow decline) in 1993-94, before any of the games you mention were actually published. Part of this decline came from the fact that other aspects of the hobby retail market (cards and miniatures) were much more profitable (this period also marks the wide release of Magic: The Gathering), and part of the problem was TSR's. It's also worth noting that the most successful setting for Dungeons and Dragons (in fact, one of the few that survived a massive scaling back of settings when WotC took over the company) is the one with a metaplot: the Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk -- another setting with a metaplot -- also made the cut.).

 

[Sorren]

Gurps Advantages, Hero Talents: d20 calls them feats. Also, Merits and Flaws were out with the 1st Edition Player's guide in 1992, before the Skills & Powers came out. So not check.

Why no check? My argument is that the WoD system is much like the d20 system. It doesn't matter where the stuff came from, all that matters is that it has it. Are you saying WoD doesn't have a feats system? You'd be wrong. In the old WoD, Merits and Flaws did indeed exist. However, the did not act like feats. Merits were gained at character creation and could not be improved upon nor could more be gained later with experience. The new Merits system is exactly like feats in d20. You can gain more, improve them with xp, and they have a direct mechanical benefit.

I've seen no mention of Flaws at all in the new system.

Defense. White Wolf always (until Orpheus) had this little skill called Dodge. You could always abort to Dodge and it did basically the same thing. So again, not check.

Dodge was a skill, not a static value the way Defense and Armor Class is and neither Defense nor AC require any additional effort (split dice pools) on the part of the character. Both are a static value that must be overcome to deal damage.

Thus, Defense and AC serve the exact same function in both WoD and d20. The old Dodge skill is very different, and very clunky.

Move and Attack in the same combat round. You could always do that, it just cost you die pool.

And now it cost's you nothing. Just like d20...

And you made your argument against skills. So, not check

See my first sentence. It doesn't matter where the game mechanic came from. The fact is, both WoD and d20 have a skill system. Unless you are denying that, the check remains.

And templates, where did that come from. I have been keeping up with the same stuff you have and haven't see it anywhere. And they may have a different meaning (templates in d6 Star Wars are nothing like templates in d20).

See above. Demo scenerio part 2, page 4, "New Systems: The Vampire Template". It serves the exact same purpose as it does in d20.


As I said before, these are all good things in my opinion. Back in the old WoD, nothing ruined the flow of the game like combat. It took seemingly forever to resolve a round. These changes should make everything flow much smoother. The system was the biggest problem the old WoD games had. I think they've done a great job fixing it.

If it means making it like d20, so be it. d20 works for combat.