Vampire The Masquerade D20?

[buzz]

I am only familiar with Witchcraft and Unknown Armies (and Kult, but an older edition) and no, they are not
A.About "Angst-Ridden Badasses" (this is particularly laughable in the case of Unknown Armies) and B. "Vampire Clones."

Re-read the last sentence of my post; they're part of a general trend that I think V:tM basically started. UA can also have its share of powerful occult PCs, depending on what level of game you're playing.

The others I have no idea about. The first horror RPG was Call of Cthulhu- Unknown Armies in particular owes much more to CoC than it owes to Vampire. Witchcraft is superficially very similiar to the World of Darkness but it differs in certain very important aspects.

Well, superficialy similar is all that really matters wihtin the scope of this discussion. These games are quite similar in tone, if not similar in actual setup.

 

[Professor Phobos]

Re-read the last sentence of my post; they're part of a general trend that I think V:tM basically started. UA can also have its share of powerful occult PCs, depending on what level of game you're playing.


Well, superficialy similar is all that really matters wihtin the scope of this discussion. These games are quite similar in tone, if not similar in actual setup.

Actually, I'd argue that tone is the primary difference between them. On the whole they are all "occult/horror" games, but each vary greatly in tone.

I'll agree that V:TM started up the whole "modern occult" branch of RPGs (as Call of Cthulhu is really the only 'pure' horror game),but I won't agree that they games that followed are clones any more than I'd agree that all the various successful fantasy games are mere clones of D&D, from Stormbringer and Talislanta to Pendragon and Runequest.

 

[buzz]

I'll agree that V:TM started up the whole "modern occult" branch of RPGs (as Call of Cthulhu is really the only 'pure' horror game),but I won't agree that they games that followed are clones any more than I'd agree that all the various successful fantasy games are mere clones of D&D, from Stormbringer and Talislanta to Pendragon and Runequest.

I don't know if I'd call any of those games, save for maybe RuneQuest, "successfull". The ones I would call successful --Palladium, Rolemaster/HARP-- are very much D&D clones. Earthdawn's whole raison d'etre is building a world that justifies all of the D&D tropes.

Anyway, we're drifting. The original claim was that no one ever copied (successfully or no) V:tM, and I think it's evident that no only did it get copied, it even started a whole trend. And not just the modern occult trend, but also the whole storytelling era of RPGs.

(Well, I might give the credit to Ars Magica, but it was V:tM that broke big.)

 

[Achan hiArusa]

To Sorren

In addition to Merits there were the Combat Manuevers in the WoD Combat book (inspired from Streetfighter), the 1st ed. Mage Player's Guide, the Dark Kingdom of Jade, Demon Hunter X, and several other WoD books that all PREDATE 3rd edition. And at least in Combat, these manuevers could be bought later with experience. They have simply broadened the Merit system to include all those. And true, I have not seen mention of flaws. But still no check.

Oh, and I forgot to mention soak, which always existed from the beginning and also works mechanically like Defense (even moreso in the Trinity games). Still no check.

So they eliminated a step in allowing you to move the same time without penalizing your die pool. And yes, it is similiar to the d20 system. So I'll give you that one. Check.

Also by saying that the New WoD is similiar to d20 because it has a skill system is a violation of causation. By giving you a check here would say that the WoD designers looked into the future and said "hey WotC is putting a skill system into 3rd edition six years from now so lets also do that." Sorry being a physicist I know that's not possible. So no check.

Sorry, I missed the template thing. The Trinity Universe did a similiar thing with Inspired, Novas, and Psions, but they didn't call it a template until Adventure d20. Check.

As for combat, I actually enjoyed the fact that combat ruined the flow of the game. It meant that the players actually tried to find ways to avoid combat and resolve their differences by other means. Combat became a last resort.

As for d20, as written its great for Miniature Combat, but it requires ignoring a whole lot of rules for Narrative Combat (Monte Cook has some great suggestions on his website for how to do that). If I want to play Miniature combat I will play Battletech (sigh, how I wish I could get people to play Battletech), but when I roleplay, I want to roleplay.

 

[buzz]

As for d20, as written its great for Miniature Combat, but it requires ignoring a whole lot of rules for Narrative Combat (Monte Cook has some great suggestions on his website for how to do that). If I want to play Miniature combat I will play Battletech (sigh, how I wish I could get people to play Battletech), but when I roleplay, I want to roleplay.

Man, is that saw getting rusty.

 

[BruceB]

Buzz, to answer a question from a few days back:

Yes, a print collection is likely when I've done maybe ten or a dozen of these.

I will not be shy about announcing it, if and when.

 

[buzz]

Yes, a print collection is likely when I've done maybe ten or a dozen of these.

Sweet! I promise not to review it when it comes out.

Sorry, couldn't resist. You can definitely sign me up for a copy.

 

[Sorren]

In addition to Merits there were the Combat Manuevers in the WoD Combat book (inspired from Streetfighter), the 1st ed. Mage Player's Guide, the Dark Kingdom of Jade, Demon Hunter X, and several other WoD books that all PREDATE 3rd edition. And at least in Combat, these manuevers could be bought later with experience. They have simply broadened the Merit system to include all those. And true, I have not seen mention of flaws. But still no check.

Again, you miss my point. I don't care where it came from or what system had it first. The fact is, both systems have it now. Therefore, they are both similar. That's what the "check" represents.

Both systems have a "feat" system? Check.

Unless you are saying they don't...

Oh, and I forgot to mention soak, which always existed from the beginning and also works mechanically like Defense (even moreso in the Trinity games). Still no check.

Soak functions like d20's damage reduction.

Soak = Damage Reduction
Defense = Armor Class (or "Defense" in many d20 games)

Both systems serve the EXACT same functions in both games. How can you deny that?

Also by saying that the New WoD is similiar to d20 because it has a skill system is a violation of causation. By giving you a check here would say that the WoD designers looked into the future and said "hey WotC is putting a skill system into 3rd edition six years from now so lets also do that." Sorry being a physicist I know that's not possible. So no check.

Again, you could say Adam invented the skill system. It doesn't negate the fact that both systems have a skill system.

Both systems have a skill system? Check.

As for combat, I actually enjoyed the fact that combat ruined the flow of the game. It meant that the players actually tried to find ways to avoid combat and resolve their differences by other means. Combat became a last resort.

For a game whose character's very food often depends on violance, this is poor game design. WW realized this, and fixed it. Sure, some vampires liked to feed by seduction or whatever, but if I wanted to play a "hunter" type, I've essentially screwed the flow of the game.

In a role-playing game, I shouldn't be denied a course of action because the system can't support it.

As for d20, as written its great for Miniature Combat, but it requires ignoring a whole lot of rules for Narrative Combat (Monte Cook has some great suggestions on his website for how to do that). If I want to play Miniature combat I will play Battletech (sigh, how I wish I could get people to play Battletech), but when I roleplay, I want to roleplay.

You're suggesting d20 games don't allow you to role-play because it has a functional combat system? I think a lot of people would disagree with you. I myself have gone through several D&D sessions without a second of combat and the stories were just as intense as any Vampire game I've ever played.

You might consider trying to see past the stereotypes.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

"as Call of Cthulhu is really the only 'pure' horror game"

You aren't familiar with the Chill RPG are you?

For a game whose character's very food often depends on violance, this is poor game design. WW realized this, and fixed it. Sure, some vampires liked to feed by seduction or whatever, but if I wanted to play a "hunter" type, I've essentially screwed the flow of the game.

Nope... not in the least. In V:tM Revised there is actually a dice rolling system that makes the "Hunt" abstract. The roll is all about actually locating prey that puts itself into a position where you can get away with feeding without breaking the Masquerade. You could just leave it to the dice roll and go on with the game but if you wanted to roleplay through it then you certainly could. The important thing for the Storyteller to remember is that if you rolled successfully then the victim is PREY... they shouldn't be armed to the teeth to the point that they can really resist the Vampire. Only if a botch is rolled should something happen that could threaten the Vampire. If you rolled successfully and you are a Seducer then you've convinced your prey to go out to your car with you to make out. If you are a Brawler and you rolled successfully then you may have picked a fight with someone and convinced them to take it out into a back alley by themselves where nobody can see you.

 

[Sorren]

Problem is, for some people, myself included, reducing one of the most important and interesting aspects of playing a vampire character to a single dice roll kinda sucks.

Granted, depending on the story, it can sometimes be convenient. But I've had entire sessions involving nothing but the hunt for prey.

Vampire is often a violant game. The system should be able to support combat. Look at Werewolf. It's typically MUCH more violant and it uses the same system.

It's poor game design. WW knows this. If they didn't, they wouldn't be changing it.