Vile Darkness- Controversy and the past

[Kesh]

There is one reason I'm concerned about BoVD:

Zero Tolerance.

We've managed to get away from that disaster somewhat. But has everyone forgotten that "Plays D&D" was one of the "danger signs" people were going on about after Columbine and what not?

I know this is several pages old by now, but I just had to comment on this one.

The other day, a fellow employee made a comment about my black trenchcoat, wondering if I had brought my gun in today. (He was joking, but in a somewhat snide way.)

Later that same day, when I was talking about another subject with someone else, he asked if we were talking about D&D. (We weren't.) When I quipped, "Oh, but I could talk about it if you'd prefer." He commented how geeky we were.

So, D&D just makes me 'geeky'. The trenchcoat was more associated with violence. Draw from that what you want.

 

[hellbender]

In the name of all that is holy, why is this thread still alive? Kill it! Be merciful! The bile and drek is starting to puddle up!

h

 

[DaemonBolo]

I tend to disagree with people who have to put down someone should their opinions differ. Unfortunately, I see no 'reason' in Rob's arguments other than he believes anyone who disagrees with his personal preferences is censoring or attacking him on a personal level.

Well, if you want necrophilia in your game, then put it there. A GM can do anything that they want within the framework of the game. I do object to formal rules that codify and mainstream such activity.

As for the idea that only adults or college-aged people play this game, do you intend to stay in that bubble? I'll lay claim that most people got there start with DnD when in middle or high school. In fact, DnD is WRITTEN for 10 year olds.

I know a lot of kids who play the game. I would say that a lot more kids play the game than adults. Why? Because most kids stop playing once they reach high school due to the 'geekness' associated with the game. To think that the BoVD will not have an effect on that market is to live in your own world.

I'd prefer to keep this discussion intellectual, but you'd rather jump on the reactionary bandwagon and beat someone into submission by insulting them. Get a life.

As for the school that recently banned DnD. Cary, NC.

Bolo's Rule!

 

[Buttercup]

In fact, DnD is WRITTEN for 10 year olds.

Bolo's Rule!

Actually, this isn't correct. A number of WotC employees have stated that the demographic they were going for in 3e was/is college age people. In other words, adults.


I left the other line of your quote in because I was wondering, what is Bolo's rule?

Oh, and now do you see why I made my point #8 in my first post? This argument has been going on for over a month, and not a single person has changed their position one micron.

 

[RobNJ]

Cut the crap. Censorship is when someone is prevented from expressing themselves.

Read what I wrote before you reply to it. I didn't say "censorship" I said "censorious". The two words don't mean the same thing.

And if I recall correctly, it was you who came here saying that I should not be expressing my distaste for necrophilia. If you are looking for a censorious tone, look no futher than your posts.

Wrong, I didn't say you shouldn't express your distaste. I said you shouldn't try to prevent the entertainment of others and encourage a publisher to curtail its creative freedom because of your personal proclivities.

 

[herald]

Psion Said:

Precisely. Right now I can say I am a gamer with pride. If gaming becomes associated with necrophilia and other grossness, I will no longer be able to. I'd rather prevent that.

The solid fact is that it won't happen. Gamers themselves can cause this sort of problem if they were to engage in these acts. But they would have to be so great in magnitude that no one could imagine.

No one is shocked any more. I can't balme any one person for it, but face it, almost controversial topic has come to the point of being a two sided issue. (I'm not saying that's a bad idea).

Jerry Springer continually puts questionalbe material on and TV stations around the globe put him on at all hours of the day. When I was in Russia for a few weeks I was surprised to see that they have a simular show on at prime time at least twice a week. I don't see anyone hiding thier face because they were on TV

Randy Moss proves that no matter what you do, if you are importaint enough, and have enough money, you can get away with almost anything. Hell, you can even push meter maids down the street with you car for a half block. I don't see anyone hiding the fact that enjoy football

National Politicians of every stripe pretty much shrug off fianacial felonies like water off a ducks back. Call them on it and they will say your a traitor or against democracy. I don't see anyone hiding the fact that they enjoy public service.

The spiritual leaders of our country aren't much better. But I don't see any churches closing thier doors. Catholics and the like may have some rotton apples to worry about, but they don't hide the fact that they are Catholics.

BOVD is one optional book. Just like the Psionics book. I haven't see anything that required you to go and use Psionics book, so have to wonder what all this "Pollyanna" histronics is about.

If your skin is so thin as to not be able to handle one book of material that might offend a portion of anyone who comes in contact with it, you need to understand that you are part of a larger community. The vast majority of us who play the game have reached the age of 18 and are ready to deal with issues beyond the scope that has been originally presented. We understand the risk of pendandic, bible-thumping, pedagogues, and we are prepared to deal with them.

Any reasonable parent who might be swayed from keeping thier teenagers from playing the game, can just as easilly swayed by entering a game shop in any community and see that guy like us, are not trying to lead thier children astray.

The time to stop acting like victims is past. The time to stop allowing those who do not play the game to define what we are has passed. It is time have some pride in the community that we have and be free to be what we are.

 

[DaemonBolo]

Buttercup:

Bolo's: The Bolo comes from the late Keith Laumer's science fiction writing. The Bolo is a A.I. tank that came to dominate the battlefields of his universe. There were a ton of books on the subject. I wanted something different for my name, so I went for Daemon, or demon bolo.

I do see your point, although I have been out of the loop for weeks, so the argument was new to me. I have no clue where anyone got the idea of censorship from my original post as I never advocated it. I tend to agree with Psion that WOTC is the wrong person to publish this material. After all, Evil was printed without any fuss, so if those people who say that those of us with objections are censors, then they are not paying attention to the argument.

In any event, I am done with the discussion as it was reduced to petty infighting, not the intellectual discourse I'd have wanted to see. I give my thanks to Psion and Canis for great arguments though. Now I am off the the land of d20 publishing. I have deadlines!

Bolo's Forever

 

[RobNJ]

Wizards is the party of concern here. I cannot make wizards stop printing anything.

No, but you want to, and that is itself far more offensive then make pretend necrophilia.

The first ammendment does not prohibit me from trying to influence others in a business relationship, sorry, and again this whole line of reasoning is specious.

Did you hear me invoke either the First Amendment or the first ammendment? No. Not once. I told you you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to stifle creative freedom. I told you that you are the same as the fundimentalist wackos that try to impose their bigotry on the entire game. You just picked one section to impose yourself on. That doesn't make you superior to them. You're the same breed. You try to stop expression that offends you. That is repugnant.

Do gnomes OFFEND you? Would you feel the need to keep certain books out of the hands of your children lest they be exposed to graphic material about GNOMES?

No, because I'm not an idiot. Taking offense at the material in the BoVD is on the same order as taking offense at talk about gnomes.

You are trying to grope for moral high ground here buy saying I am "preventing" you from doing something. Sorry, it doesn't work that way and a constitutional law scholar would laugh you out of the room.

Quit bringing up your failed comprehension of the Constitution. I'm not talking about the government, the Constitution, or law. I'm talking about morals. I don't need the Constitution as a source of moral outrage. I can manage it fine on my own without your having broken any laws.

It is a fundimentally evil, selfish, bigoted and parochial to advocate for the repression of speech that you find objectionable. That is what you are doing. I never said you were going to go to the courts, so give that a rest. I'm talking about your choice to advocate that Wizards not produce the content it wishes to. That choice is one without defense, and one which you should be ashamed of. You're the same as those who try to prevent D&D from being published in any form.

I have a moral right to let WotC or any other publisher know that I consider certain sorts of material objectionable,

No you don't. Not when your morals are wrong.

But YOU don't have the moral right to try to prevent me from expressing this, sorry.

I have the moral duty to blast you as forcefully as I can for taking fundimentally immoral action, however.

 

[Pielorinho]

As for the school that recently banned DnD. Cary, NC.

Bolo's Rule!

Cary, as in Containment Area for Relocated Yankees Cary? Sorry to be a bore, but that's a city, not a school. The reason I'm asking you for specifics is that I want to check out the situation for myself; do you have a school name? a principal name? Any details?

Daniel

 

[RobNJ]

Re: Re: Hey Psion...

Let me ask you this: does the same publisher put out Archie and Bondage Fairies?

The same publisher put out Preacher, which published a book that had a character that would have sex with animals until he killed them, put out Young Justice, a comic book initially pitched at a preteen readership.

What you are disingenuously pretending you don't understand (but do) is that just as hysterical parents would look at Bondage Faeries and Archie and conclude, "Comix is bad!" so too would an idiot parent look at Freak Legion and Bunnies and Burrows and conclude, "Play rollin' games is bad!"

Fortunately you don't actually believe what you're saying, you're just trying to make a point to continue to advocate your indefensible position of trying to silence content you don't like while bolstering content you do.

Two more points that work in well with this analogy.

Earlier you implied that analogies were patently bad (while using one yourself) yet never defended this facile argument. Is it only relevent when you're not the one making the analogy?

First off, who would you feel if you had subscribed to, say, the Legion of Superheroes and then in the middle of your subscription, there was a swank-humor pinup of dreamgirl in the latest episode. That's how I feel about dragon 300. I subscribed for one thing, and got another.

Then you must have only ever heard of Swank and never actually seen it. Your analogy is deeply and fundimentally flawed. The material in Dragon 300 was advertised months ahead of time, put in a sealed section, and it wasn't very bad at all. And it was in a magazine that is mostly sold to adults.

Now how would you feel if nudity offended you, but there was this really great comic coming out (something like Watchmen), but had a few nude picture in it? I think BoVD is a potentially very useful book, but I think a few aspects of it are in bad taste. That's fine, I'll survive. But it is incumbent on us as customers to let the publisher know what parts of the book you liked and didn't like.

No, it's not incumbent on you. Your opinion really doesn't matter. Neither does mine. What it's incumbant on you to do is not to attack and advocate for the silencing of speech you don't like. What it's incumbent upon you to do is leave other gamers the hell alone and let them play the kind of game they want to and not stick your moralizing nose into things.