Visibility by starlight

[Krelios]

Low-light vision is like daylight vision, except that it works at night. There is no range limit beyond that distance to which you could normally see (so, at best, the horizon).

No.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters.

It's bright as daylight for twice the distance that a human can see in those conditions. Starlight is shadowy for 5' for humans. That means elves see clearly for 10' and shadowy for a further 10'.

 

[Quasqueton]

It's bright as daylight for twice the distance that a human can see in those conditions. Starlight is shadowy for 5' for humans. That means elves see clearly for 10' and shadowy for a further 10'.

Where did you get "starlight is shadowy for 5'"?

Quasqueton

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Starlight is shadowy for 5' for humans.

Actually, that's the important point. The rules don't actually say what "starlight" or "bright moonlight" is.

So, if on a particular cloudy night, it's bright enough for a human to have 5' shadowy sight, that means a human is blind beyong 5' (where there's total darkness). For the record, that's really, really dark.

A much more reasonable assumption is that, on a relatively clear, full-moon night, everything has shadowy illumination. That means everyone has line-of-sight to the horizon, but everything has concealment. Creatures with low-light vision, however, treat it as full daylight.

From here, you work backwards. More clouds or a less-full moon brings the edge of LOS back to 1/2 way to the horizon, meaning low-light vision creatures still operate normally.

You should be careful with how far you bring the horizon in, however, because it can lead to pretty ridiculous results, as the 5' shadowy discussion above demonstrates.

 

[Krelios]

Actually, that's the important point. The rules don't actually say what "starlight" or "bright moonlight" is.

So, if on a particular cloudy night, it's bright enough for a human to have 5' shadowy sight, that means a human is blind beyong 5' (where there's total darkness). For the record, that's really, really dark.

A much more reasonable assumption is that, on a relatively clear, full-moon night, everything has shadowy illumination. That means everyone has line-of-sight to the horizon, but everything has concealment. Creatures with low-light vision, however, treat it as full daylight.

From here, you work backwards. More clouds or a less-full moon brings the edge of LOS back to 1/2 way to the horizon, meaning low-light vision creatures still operate normally.

You should be careful with how far you bring the horizon in, however, because it can lead to pretty ridiculous results, as the 5' shadowy discussion above demonstrates.

You're right, but I didn't think starlight would be brighter than candlelight, and, indeed, candles only provide 5' shadowy illumination. IMO, giving starlight the equivalent of a candle burning in every 5' square is overly generous--then again, the rules for sight/spotting are pretty poor in D&D to begin with.

 

[Quasqueton]

You're right, but I didn't think starlight would be brighter than candlelight, and, indeed, candles only provide 5' shadowy illumination. IMO, giving starlight the equivalent of a candle burning in every 5' square is overly generous--then again, the rules for sight/spotting are pretty poor in D&D to begin with.

So you didn't think that a billion burning spheres many times the size of the world itself would produce light equivalent to a single flame the size of your thumb? ;-)

Ever been out in the open at night, away from city lights? You can actually see pretty well on a starlit night. Moonlight makes it even brighter. Humans are not blind at night.

But consider that someone with no modifier to a Hide check (Taking 10 = 10) can be completely hidden from someone with no modifier to a Spot check (Taking 20 = 20) at no more than 110 feet away. Assuming both Take 10, the hider can be just 10 feet away.

Quasqueton

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

IMO, giving starlight the equivalent of a candle burning in every 5' square is overly generous--then again, the rules for sight/spotting are pretty poor in D&D to begin with.

Well, I'll tell you that I've been camping in the middle of nowhere on a moonless, cloudy night, and I've been able to see a lot farther than 5 feet. Could I see hundreds of feet? No. But it was a lot more than 5.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, I'll tell you that I've been camping in the middle of nowhere on a moonless, cloudy night, and I've been able to see a lot farther than 5 feet. Could I see hundreds of feet? No. But it was a lot more than 5.

But in D&D seeing means seeing clearly. As in clearly enough to read, or close to it.

By this definition you could see approximately zero feet under starlight only.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

So that means that races with Darkvision but no low-light vision are screwed for seeing things in the distance when outdoors at night, compared to races with low-light but no darkvision. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that.

It makes the game tactically richer. I see it as a positive feature.

 

[Quasqueton]

But in D&D seeing means seeing clearly. As in clearly enough to read, or close to it.

Hmmm. I can't seem to find that definition in the D&D rules.

Quasqueton

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But in D&D seeing means seeing clearly. As in clearly enough to read, or close to it.

Really? Where does it say that?

The closest things I can find are:

Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them by.

In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.

D&D has three choices when it comes to how illuminated a particular square is. It's either bright, shadowy, or dark.

If you want to argue that starlight / moonlight isn't enough to make the countryside shadowy, then you are by extension arguing that it causes every square to be treated as dark.

Which means that everyone who doesn't have darkvision is completely blind at night.

Yes, everyone.

If, instead, you make a much more reasonable ruling that starlight / moonlight provides a certain radius of shadowy illumination to a character, beyond which it is considered dark, then you can avoid the silliness of everything but dwarves being completely blind as soon as the sun goes down.