Wall of Force question

[Dandu]

Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally.

So let's see.

1. Nothing can pass in or out.

Gas vapors on the outside remain out. Gas vapors inside remain in. The vacuum of space (if, indeed, outer space exists and operates according to such principals) is blocked so you won't decompress explosively, but you better have a bottle of air inside if you want air, as the sphere doesn't generate atmosphere.

While you could interpret the protection clause to mean that, I think that is an example of false equivocation. You wouldn't argue that Exodus 19:13 shows that Moses owns a truck, would you? After all, does Scripture not say'Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.' When the ram's horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.



2. The subject can breathe normally.

What's wrong with your breathing if you're surrounded by poison gas? Your lungs are working fine. You are breathing normally. Unfortunately, the gasses you are breathing in are no longer of benign composition.

QED.

Now, shall we have a tea party? I'd like to offer you half a cup of tea.

 

[Greenfield]

Well, we could agree that "Breathe normally" means "Don't breathe at all", because it's perfectly "normal" to suffocate when locked in a hermetically sealed bubble.

That is, after all, the logical extension of your argument. Except that we both know that that's now what it says or means at all.

Or, we could take the RAW at face value and stop trying to make it say something it doesn't. By whatever means, a person inside the bubble can breathe normally. The exact mechanism isn't really important, or worth arguing over.

 

[Dandu]

Well, we could agree that "Breathe normally" means "Don't breathe at all", because it's perfectly "normal" to suffocate when locked in a hermetically sealed bubble.

If we glance at the Suffocation rules, we see that:

A Medium character can breathe easily for 6 hours in a sealed chamber measuring 10 feet on a side. After that time, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage every 15 minutes. Each additional Medium character or significant fire source (a torch, for example) proportionally reduces the time the air will last. When a character falls unconscious from this nonlethal damage, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the next round, she suffocates.

Small characters consume half as much air as Medium characters. A larger volume of air, of course, lasts for a longer time.

A Resilient Sphere has a diameter of 1ft per caster level. This is 7 feet at minimum.

A chamber 10 feet long on each side has a volume of 1000 cubic feet. A Resilient Sphere with a diameter of 7 feet has a volume which follows the formula (4/3)*3.1415*(7/2)^3. This is roughly 180 cubic feet. (179.589083, 3 repeating to be precise.)

The sphere has a volume that is 18% that of the cubic chamber, which we know provides a person with enough air for 6 hours. Thus, the Resilient Sphere, at the first level you can cast it, provides enough air for 6* 0.18 hours. That would be 1.08 hours, or 64.8 minutes. The duration of a CL 7 Resilient Sphere is 7 rounds. Each round is about 6 seconds, so the sphere lasts for 42 seconds.

Thus, there is 93 times enough air to breath the sphere, assuming minimum caster level. You can extend it, but there'd still be enough air. You could double the occupant's size, and there'd still be enough air.

So it would appear that there is no danger of suffocation if we take RAW at face value. Which, I am lead to believe, is your preferred approach?

 

[Greenfield]

Sounds good to me.

By the way, the spell duration is one minute per level, not a round per level.

Now, what if you enclose more than one person?

 

[Dandu]

Sounds good to me.

By the way, the spell duration is one minute per level, not a round per level.

Thank you for pointing that out.

With a duration of 7 minutes, a Resilient Sphere at Caster Level 7 lasts for 7 minutes. Which is a little less than 1/9th of 64.8 minutes.

Now, what if you enclose more than one person?

As we agreed upon, a 7ft diameter sphere lasts for 7 minutes and has enough air for one person to survive for 64.8 minutes. You would have to pack in 9 people in total and you'd still have enough air: 64.8 minutes divided by 9 people = 7.2 minutes of air per person

Now, a Resilient Sphere may not manifest under ideal conditions. Perhaps there is a floor underneath the creature the Sphere is centered around. This wouldn't exactly result in a hemisphere if we take things literally, but let us assume so for the sake of my sanity. This would mean we'd be able to accommodate 4.5 people. So 4 humans and a halfling, then.

Well, what if it was Extended? We'd only be able to accommodate 2.25 people, or two humans and a pixie.

In conclusion:

1. Breathe normally likely means "breathe as if in spherical room with no way in or out."

2. There's suffocation rules if you feel there is a risk for suffocation.

3. Suffocation is unlikely to come up unless you really enjoy math.

 

[Greenfield]

I was joking.

With the duration in minutes, the sphere has "only" 9.3 times more air than needed, instead of 93. And, since D&D rules don't allow more than one person in a square, except in he case of Grapples, there's no way to get the 9.3 people in that sphere.

The only reason Resilient Sphere came up was because someone equated it to Wall of Force, implying that the Wall wouldn't disturb air flow, since the Sphere allows the occupant to "breathe normally".

So, the occupant can breathe normally, which means it can in fact be sealed air tight, which means that even though it was a bad comparison in the first place the Wall will still disturb air flow, which suggests that it might be spotted by Blind Sense, which means it weighs the same as a duck or something.

 

[Dandu]

And, since D&D rules don't allow more than one person in a square, except in he case of Grapples, there's no way to get the 9.3 people in that sphere.

INCORRECT!

Epic Escape Artist

The character can pass through spaces smaller than his or her head, or even through a wall of force.

DC Task
80 Extremely tight space
120 Pass through wall of force

Extremely Tight Space
This is the DC for getting through a space when one’s head shouldn’t even be able to fit; this can be as small as 2 inches square for Medium-size creatures. Halve this limit for each size category less than Medium-size; double it for each size category greater than Medium-size. If the space is long, such as in a chimney, multiple checks may be called for.

Pass through Wall of Force
This allows a character to find a gap of weakness in a wall of force (or similar force effect) and squeeze through it.

 

[Greenfield]

Are we really going to keep doing this, correcting each other?

Okay, I'll play.

Epic Escape artist may be able to find a way through a brick wall, or a Wall of Force.

According to the PHB, page 148, under "Ending your movement", you can't end your movement in the square of another creature unless they're helpless.

The only other exception is in the case of a Grapple: PHB Page 156, Stage 4 under starting a Grapple says, "Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)
Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1."

So you might be able to slide between air molecules but you still can't finish the slide in the same square as someone else.

 

[Deset Gled]

Are we really going to keep doing this, correcting each other?

Isn't that why we're all here?

Okay, I'll play.
...
So you might be able to slide between air molecules but you still can't finish the slide in the same square as someone else.

You're forgetting about rules for squeezing (remember, the sphere is more than one square in size), rules for creatures that are smaller than "small" and take up less than a square, cases where the sphere is larger (size is based on caster level), and the presence of other things that may consume oxygen (i.e. fire).

The bottom line is that if you're going to try and be pedantic you can't hand-wave the "breathe normally" clause away by just saying "the sphere is big enough".

 

[Greenfield]

I'm not the one who argued the size of the sphere or the volume of air consumed.

I said that creatures inside one could breathe normally, by whatever mechanism, despite the fact that neither air nor anything else can pass through. How? It's magic.

And generally this isn't a competitive forum for the self-aggrandizement of posters. There are plenty of shouting matches out there. As a rule, we don't come here for that. In fact, it can get people banned.