Wall of Force question
Jason O. Ross
First Post
Sounds like we agree on quit a bit except damage on the impact and your argument about a spot check due to air currents so here is a hypothetical question dealing with falling: According to RAW If said dragon starting at 240 ft up dove at 240ft move rate nose first into the ground how much damage would it take. Takes max fall damage of 20d6, correct? I'm just changing the axis 90° with the same RAW variables. As for feeling air currents to notice a wall of force it is my opinion that the wall wouldn't affect them. Resilient Sphere spell:
" The sphere functions as a wall of force...A subject inside the sphere can breathe normally...".
This would seam to indicate that normal air flow is not effected by a wall of force, so there would nothing out of the ordinary to detect the wall from that point of view. Would the dragon still get a save? DM option I guess. I chose to give it a reflex save for half with a -2 a circumstance penalty (*spoiler* it failed) though I could have been pushed into not giving it one as I did rule it as fall damage and that doesn't get a save, so if the situation came up again I probably wouldn't. In hind sight though my dragon did have see invisibility as a spell but had not cast it. I had combat buffs up instead, in my defense it did have a cursed item that lowered it's int and wis to make it more controllable by the BBEG so super strategizing was not its strong suit at this point.
Side note: If you want to know what you can do while falling and how far you have to fall before you can do it I use casting while falling rules as a good rule of thumb.
By the way the bit about trying to hit the barrier with a 50% miss chance if noticed, true & hilarious!
I guess it come down to letting players come up with out of the box non traditional solutions and do your best with what the rules give you to work with to figure out the outcome and in this case the outcome was pretty cool!
" The sphere functions as a wall of force...A subject inside the sphere can breathe normally...".
This would seam to indicate that normal air flow is not effected by a wall of force, so there would nothing out of the ordinary to detect the wall from that point of view. Would the dragon still get a save? DM option I guess. I chose to give it a reflex save for half with a -2 a circumstance penalty (*spoiler* it failed) though I could have been pushed into not giving it one as I did rule it as fall damage and that doesn't get a save, so if the situation came up again I probably wouldn't. In hind sight though my dragon did have see invisibility as a spell but had not cast it. I had combat buffs up instead, in my defense it did have a cursed item that lowered it's int and wis to make it more controllable by the BBEG so super strategizing was not its strong suit at this point.
Side note: If you want to know what you can do while falling and how far you have to fall before you can do it I use casting while falling rules as a good rule of thumb.
By the way the bit about trying to hit the barrier with a 50% miss chance if noticed, true & hilarious!
I guess it come down to letting players come up with out of the box non traditional solutions and do your best with what the rules give you to work with to figure out the outcome and in this case the outcome was pretty cool!
Greenfield
Adventurer
The Sphere spell is quite different from the Wall in many ways. One of them being that the Sphere isn't air tight. Or is it? Does it act as a filter, so poison gasses are kept out but breathing isn't impaired? Does it offer some sort of life support instead?
We know that a "targeted Dispel Magic" can take down the Sphere, but not the Wall. But the Wall never says, or even suggests that it it won't stop a Gust of Wind. Quite the opposite. And a window screen allows normal breathing, but definitely changes the air flow.
So, meaning no offense, I think your analogy is flawed.
The Save v the Wall isn't like a fall: There's no outside force driving the Dragon into the wall, just inertia which can be reversed or redirected. There is an outside force not simply driving a falling creature into the ground, it's accelerating the creature towards the ground.
Also, the ground is a lot larger than the Wall spell. Much harder to miss.
Now, as I've mentioned a few times, the original question specifically mentioned RAW. That's not the same as RAI, or how any particular table plays the game. My answers were specific to RAW. I wasn't trying to tell anyone how to run their game, and strict RAW isn't how I run mine.
One problem I've found with trying to convert speed into falling distance is that D&D falling rules are linear: Fixed increases in damage based on distance. But falling speed is non-linear, in terms of distance. It's linear relative to time, but as falling speed increases it takes less and less time to cover a given distance (such as 10 feet). Turning game movement into falling distance gives very unsatisfying, uneven results. You double the damage at less than double the speed.
Add in the in-game time spent doing the Trig' involved will tend to kill the adrenaline of the moment. A serious action sequence, with a three minute interlude for calculating the acceleration curve and plotting it against a distance, will kill the fun far faster than it can kill any Dragon ever hatched.
We know that a "targeted Dispel Magic" can take down the Sphere, but not the Wall. But the Wall never says, or even suggests that it it won't stop a Gust of Wind. Quite the opposite. And a window screen allows normal breathing, but definitely changes the air flow.
So, meaning no offense, I think your analogy is flawed.
The Save v the Wall isn't like a fall: There's no outside force driving the Dragon into the wall, just inertia which can be reversed or redirected. There is an outside force not simply driving a falling creature into the ground, it's accelerating the creature towards the ground.
Also, the ground is a lot larger than the Wall spell. Much harder to miss.
Now, as I've mentioned a few times, the original question specifically mentioned RAW. That's not the same as RAI, or how any particular table plays the game. My answers were specific to RAW. I wasn't trying to tell anyone how to run their game, and strict RAW isn't how I run mine.
One problem I've found with trying to convert speed into falling distance is that D&D falling rules are linear: Fixed increases in damage based on distance. But falling speed is non-linear, in terms of distance. It's linear relative to time, but as falling speed increases it takes less and less time to cover a given distance (such as 10 feet). Turning game movement into falling distance gives very unsatisfying, uneven results. You double the damage at less than double the speed.
Add in the in-game time spent doing the Trig' involved will tend to kill the adrenaline of the moment. A serious action sequence, with a three minute interlude for calculating the acceleration curve and plotting it against a distance, will kill the fun far faster than it can kill any Dragon ever hatched.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Oh I agree, though the duration, which is measured in minutes, is borderline too short to really do that.
And it's funny because, as written, it would allow someone to breath "normally" in places where they normally couldn't. We don't see much D&D in the vacuum of space, but under water? In toxic gas clouds? The summary description in the spell index says it "protects but traps" a creature.
Ironically I'd considered it as part of a death trap, popping one on a foe who was already inside a Cloud Kill, trapping them inside with it for what would probably be the rest of their life.. But, as written, the Sphere would save them from it instead.
In theory, a Force Cage could be used to suffocate someone.
Question about the Sphere: The duration is one minute per caster level. The size is one foot diameter per caster level. You can willingly cast a spell at a lower caster level than your character actually is, but if you reduce the size to fit the environment, are you also reducing the duration?
Other differences that make it clear the Sphere and the Wall aren't really comparable: The Wall is Invisible, the Sphere isn't. The Wall can't be taken down by Dispel, but the Sphere can.
Both say that nothing can pass through it, with the sphere adding the phrase "in or out" since there isn't an "in" or "out" of a Wall of Force. The Wall specifies that it blocks all spells, other than Gaze effects. The Sphere implies that, but never mentions spells passing through, nor Gaze effects. So, accepted as written, Gaze effects are blocked by the Sphere. Either that or it becomes a caster's best friend, protecting them from all physical harm (as opposed to magical harm) yet allowing them to cast with impunity.
I don't think it was intended to be a tank.
Now the Wall says it can't be cast where it passes through any object. The Sphere, being, well, a sphere, will have only one point touching the ground, so if someone is standing on two or more feet then, by the strictest interpretation it couldn't be cast around them. It would have to pass through at least one of their feet. We tend to play that it can pass through the ground harmlessly, to allow standing space inside. It doesn't "cut" the ground or damage it, it just permeates.
And it's funny because, as written, it would allow someone to breath "normally" in places where they normally couldn't. We don't see much D&D in the vacuum of space, but under water? In toxic gas clouds? The summary description in the spell index says it "protects but traps" a creature.
Ironically I'd considered it as part of a death trap, popping one on a foe who was already inside a Cloud Kill, trapping them inside with it for what would probably be the rest of their life.. But, as written, the Sphere would save them from it instead.
In theory, a Force Cage could be used to suffocate someone.
Question about the Sphere: The duration is one minute per caster level. The size is one foot diameter per caster level. You can willingly cast a spell at a lower caster level than your character actually is, but if you reduce the size to fit the environment, are you also reducing the duration?
Other differences that make it clear the Sphere and the Wall aren't really comparable: The Wall is Invisible, the Sphere isn't. The Wall can't be taken down by Dispel, but the Sphere can.
Both say that nothing can pass through it, with the sphere adding the phrase "in or out" since there isn't an "in" or "out" of a Wall of Force. The Wall specifies that it blocks all spells, other than Gaze effects. The Sphere implies that, but never mentions spells passing through, nor Gaze effects. So, accepted as written, Gaze effects are blocked by the Sphere. Either that or it becomes a caster's best friend, protecting them from all physical harm (as opposed to magical harm) yet allowing them to cast with impunity.
I don't think it was intended to be a tank.
Now the Wall says it can't be cast where it passes through any object. The Sphere, being, well, a sphere, will have only one point touching the ground, so if someone is standing on two or more feet then, by the strictest interpretation it couldn't be cast around them. It would have to pass through at least one of their feet. We tend to play that it can pass through the ground harmlessly, to allow standing space inside. It doesn't "cut" the ground or damage it, it just permeates.
Cleon
Legend
Well I love applying Physics to D&D. It can produce some hilarious results.
The fall distances above are twice too large. The formula's distance = ½ × acceleration × time². It isn't acceleration × time².
Incidentally, a dragon travelling at 240 feet per round (or 40 feet per second) is moving at 27.8 mph, a speed equivalent to a fall of about 25 feet.
That's really neither here nor there. Gravity in 3E D&D-land clearly works in some bizarre fashion unrelated to our universe - the rules for Damage from Falling Objects make that quite clear.
Dandu
First Post
I don't know what you're talking about. It's perfectly normal to die from lack of air or poison gas.
Greenfield
Adventurer
And it's perfectly natural to die if stabbed 27 times with a dagger, yet they don't refer to such a death a s"Natural". It would be pretty unnatural not to die from such serious wounds in fact.
So support your local medical examiner: Die strangely!
So support your local medical examiner: Die strangely!
Dandu
First Post
There's an old joke.
An old man, returning to his old neighborhood after some time away, saw a solemn funeral procession winding its way down the street. He stopped and waved down a friend.
"Who died?" he asked.
"Baby Face Anglo's girlfriend," his friend responded.
"But she was so young! What did she die of?"
"Gonorrhea."
"But that's impossible! No one dies of gonorrhea."
"You do when you give it to Anglo."
You see, death of blood loss is perfectly normal; for that matter, so is dying violently. Human history will tell you that much.
More seriously, "Breathe normally" likely means "breath as if unimpeded by the sphere". One could interpret it otherwise. One could also interpret the rules to allow a man at negative HP to be drowned and returned to zero. And, one might note, there's no rule on how to stop drowning.
So how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Because I've adventured in Wonderland, gone through the looking glass, and sailed a boat beneath a sunny sky.
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Greenfield
Adventurer
Well, I prefer to read the entire sentence that applies here, instead of just one half.
It says, very clearly, that nothing can pass through the sphere. I take that at face value. That same sentence also says that the subject can breathe normally. I take that literally as well, and the only way that both can be true is if the Sphere provides either some form of adaptation or the spell includes life support in some form.
Choose your poison, but don't pretend that you can choose to accept half of a sentence in a spell description.
As for the "Drowned and returned to zero" idea, we've played with a version of that. It's actually a classic: Throw a bucket of water on someone who's been knocked out to wake them up.
PHB said:
It says, very clearly, that nothing can pass through the sphere. I take that at face value. That same sentence also says that the subject can breathe normally. I take that literally as well, and the only way that both can be true is if the Sphere provides either some form of adaptation or the spell includes life support in some form.
Choose your poison, but don't pretend that you can choose to accept half of a sentence in a spell description.
As for the "Drowned and returned to zero" idea, we've played with a version of that. It's actually a classic: Throw a bucket of water on someone who's been knocked out to wake them up.
