Warden L6 Utility "Bears Endurance"

[nikadeemus327]

Well dropping is a verb, so simply english language parsing would tend to consider it something that actively happens, which is a fair generic definition for an event. Even if you don't like that condition and effect are clearly synonomous in the 4e rules, so dropping to zero can still be a trigger in and of itself by the rule you quoted.

You keep conflating things.

Rules Compendium p. 229 "Conditions are states imposed on creatures by various effects."

Conditions and effects are different despite having a close relationship. For example, an effect can have multiple conditions or none at all.

They are still different from events like attack, hit, miss, and effect.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

A warden with 50 maximum hit points is currently at 25 hit points. An ally uses a power that allows the warden to move up to his speed as a free action. The warden has a magic item that grants him +1 speed when bloodied (we'll say Speed 7). The warden moves exactly 7 squares away from where he started. The last square is a precipice leading to a 30-foot fall. The warden thinks he can take the fall, so continues. The DM rolls max damage, 30. Since the warden is now below zero hit points he triggers Bear's Endurance.

Under the interpretation of those who believe an attack can be negated by Bear's Endurance the damage-causing action (moving over a cliff) is interrupted by the healing, putting the warden at 37 hit points. But now that he isn't bloodied he can only move 6 squares and thus cannot fall over the ledge. Suddenly Bear's Endurance seems like it should be reamed Owl's Wisdom.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

You keep conflating things.

Rules Compendium p. 229 "Conditions are states imposed on creatures by various effects."

Conditions and effects are different despite having a close relationship. For example, an effect can have multiple conditions or none at all.

They are still different from events like attack, hit, miss, and effect.

And you're not? Please show me where in the rules an Event is described? I purposefully use a capital E on Event in this case to mean a game defined term. Nowhere does the game define Event. So again, in a general defintion of event, dropping to zero or less hit points is the triggering event, IMO.

 

[nikadeemus327]

A warden with 50 maximum hit points is currently at 25 hit points. An ally uses a power that allows the warden to move up to his speed as a free action. The warden has a magic item that grants him +1 speed when bloodied (we'll say Speed 7). The warden moves exactly 7 squares away from where he started. The last square is a precipice leading to a 30-foot fall. The warden thinks he can take the fall, so continues. The DM rolls max damage, 30. Since the warden is now below zero hit points he triggers Bear's Endurance.

Under the interpretation of those who believe an attack can be negated by Bear's Endurance the damage-causing action (moving over a cliff) is interrupted by the healing, putting the warden at 37 hit points. But now that he isn't bloodied he can only move 6 squares and thus cannot fall over the ledge. Suddenly Bear's Endurance seems like it should be reamed Owl's Wisdom.

The final order of events would be:

Ally uses power.
Warden moves 7.
Warden gains healing from bear's endurance.
Warden takes 30 damage after falling.

Taking 30 damage is the event that causes bear's endurance to trigger.

 

[nikadeemus327]

And you're not? Please show me where in the rules an Event is described? I purposefully use a capital E on Event in this case to mean a game defined term. Nowhere does the game define Event. So again, in a general defintion of event, dropping to zero or less hit points is the triggering event, IMO.

I'm using the definition of trigger from the source material.

Rules Compendium p195 again...

"A trigger is an action, an event, or an effect that allows the use of a triggered action."

In my example being hit is what allowed bear's endurance to be used.

You and others seem to think there's some time gap between being hit and dropping below zero. They are the same event.

 

[Gryph]

And you're not? Please show me where in the rules an Event is described? I purposefully use a capital E on Event in this case to mean a game defined term. Nowhere does the game define Event. So again, in a general defintion of event, dropping to zero or less hit points is the triggering event, IMO.

Must spread XP, etc.

Exactly right, while condition has a specific game definition, effect does not and event does not. An attack is an event, being hit is an event, being force moved is an event anything that happens in game is an event.

The trigger rule doesn't say condition it says effect and regardless having -1 hit points is not in and of itself one of the game's conditions. So that line of reasoning is a non-starter as well.

[MENTION=6667520]nikadeemus327[/MENTION], I will congratulate you on helping @KarinsDad and I find common ground in a thread where we have massively disagreed with each other (other than page 2 before he recanted).

 

[Gryph]

I'm using the definition of trigger from the source material.

Rules Compendium p195 again...

"A trigger is an action, an event, or an effect that allows the use of a triggered action."

In my example being hit is what allowed bear's endurance to be used.

You and others seem to think there's some time gap between being hit and dropping below zero. They are the same event.

Now reread the rule for Immediate Interrupts.

They act when the trigger arises and before the trigger finishes. The rule does not say they act before the trigger arises.

 

[nikadeemus327]

Now reread the rule for Immediate Interrupts.

They act when the trigger arises and before the trigger finishes. The rule does not say they act before the trigger arises.

And the only way it can jump in before the trigger finishes is to be executed before the hit statement.

 

[Gryph]

And the only way it can jump in before the trigger finishes is to be executed before the hit statement.

So when the Warden changes the hit point total on his character sheet from 12 to -4 he has finished dropping to zero or fewer hit points? Nothing else happens to his character as part of resolving taking the damage that dropped him below zero?


Hint for those playing along at home, he still has to apply Dying, Unconscious, Helpless and Falling Prone to his character until he has, dropping to zero or fewer hit points hasn't finished.

If he heals before he takes the damage, dropping to zero or fewer hit points hasn't arisen.

 

[nikadeemus327]

Hint for those playing along at home, he still has to apply Dying, Unconscious, Helpless and Falling Prone to his character until he has, dropping to zero or fewer hit points hasn't finished.

All of these things happen at the exact same time as being hit. The only way to execute the effect before the trigger finishes is to execute it before the hit statement.

If he heals before he takes the damage, dropping to zero or fewer hit points hasn't arisen.

It did arise, however the player interrupted it. Just because he doesn't drop to zero any more doesn't mean the trigger didn't happen and the power wasn't expended.