Warden L6 Utility "Bears Endurance"

[Gryph]

All of these things happen at the exact same time as being hit.

Give me a rules quote that supports this and I will happily concede.

 

[nikadeemus327]

Give me a rules quote that supports this and I will happily concede.

It's because they have the same trigger.

Rules Compendium p260 "When an adventurer's hit points drop to 0 or fewer, he or she falls unconscious and is dying."

There's no method to determine which one goes first. None. The best you can say is they both happen at the same time.

 

[Gryph]

It's because they have the same trigger.

Rules Compendium p260 "When an adventurer's hit points drop to 0 or fewer, he or she falls unconscious and is dying."

There's no method to determine which one goes first. None. The best you can say is they both happen at the same time.

Two things. That rule describes a cuase and effect situation which has a logical order, i.e. causal event happens then effect happens. The word when is a pretty big clue there. In English rules of grammar the order I write things in a sentence is important to the meaning of the sentence. So, barring additional language modifying your quoted sentence the order of events is hit points drop to zero or fewer, adventurer is unconscious then adventurer is dying. In other words, without a phrase such as "in no particular order" following your quote then events happen in the order they are written in.

Second, even if there were no way to determine which happens first; there is a rule that says when multiple effects or conditions have no clear order than the player can determine which order they wish to apply them. This rule crops up most often when a character has a number of "at start of turn" effects on them but the rule granting the player choice in order of resolution doesn't limit that rule to start of turn effects.

So we are still looking for a rule that says, hit, damage, dropping to zero hit points, unconscious and dying condition all happen at the same time.

Edit [MENTION=71571]DracoSuave[/MENTION] actually this rule of player choice of order to apply effects answers your problem with powers that stun or daze. Since the damage and the stun happen at the same time the player gets to decide which order to apply them to their character. So they apply the damage first, use the interrupt to heal, then since the heal didn't invalidate the hit condition they apply the daze or stun. Net result, they are still conscious but are dazed or stunned.

 

[nikadeemus327]

Two things. That rule describes a cuase and effect situation which has a logical order, i.e. causal event happens then effect happens. The word when is a pretty big clue there. In English rules of grammar the order I write things in a sentence is important to the meaning of the sentence.

You have two logical statements that will always be true given the exact same events.

Trigger below 0 hp happens. Do you turn to p260 of the Rules Compendium and execute that effect? Or do you turn to the book/page for Bear's Endurance and execute that effect?

In other words, without a phrase such as "in no particular order" following your quote then events happen in the order they are written in.

You cannot make any assumptions about order based on the information above. There is no order. Effects that happen at the same time have no order.

Second, there is no way to determine which happens first between unconscious and dying; however, there is a rule that says when multiple effects or conditions have no clear order than the player can determine which order they wish to apply them. This rule crops up most often when a character has a number of "at start of turn" effects on them but the rule granting the player choice in order of resolution doesn't limit that rule to start of turn effects.

I'd like a citation for this rule just so I can read it. Even so...

There is no clear order between taking damage and dropping below zero hit points. They are the same event. Seriously, how do you separate the two? How can you take the damage and not also be below zero hits (using our examples).

So the player gets to choose to use bear's endurance before the damage is applied.

 

[DracoSuave]

So they apply the damage first, use the interrupt to heal, then since the heal didn't invalidate the hit condition they apply the daze or stun. Net result, they are still conscious but are dazed or stunned.

If you're operating under the assumption that dying is triggered by dropping below zero hit points, then you cannot state that dying is a part of the resolution of dropping below zero hit points, any more than Bear's Endurance does.

But let's assume they are triggers. The dying condition is triggered but is not an interrupt: It happens immediately upon dropping below zero hit points. Bear's Endurance is an interrupt; it happens BEFORE dropping to zero or below.

If the question of resolving dying even comes up, you're already done dropping below zero.

 

[Gryph]

You have two logical statements that will always be true given the exact same events.

Trigger below 0 hp happens. Do you turn to p260 of the Rules Compendium and execute that effect? Or do you turn to the book/page for Bear's Endurance and execute that effect?

The rules for Immediate Interrupts impose an order. I have to to drop my hit points first or I haven't satified the trigger condition and I can't use Bear's Endurance.

You cannot make any assumptions about order based on the information above. There is no order. Effects that happen at the same time have no order.

I'd like a citation for this rule just so I can read it. Even so...

I'm at work so I'll have to pull it when I get home.

There is no clear order between taking damage and dropping below zero hit points. They are the same event. Seriously, how do you separate the two? How can you take the damage and not also be below zero hits (using our examples).

So the player gets to choose to use bear's endurance before the damage is applied.

Well since dropping to zero or fewer hit points is the result of a mathmatical calculation performed on your hit point total after the damage calculation is performed, it sure feels like a clear order to me.

Fact of the matter, I am not (thanks to a rule quote from [MENTION=71571]DracoSuave[/MENTION]) seperating taking damage from dropping to zero or fewer hit points. I am saying that dropping to zero or fewer hit points adds more steps to the resolution of the action, namely unconscious or dying. Since unconscious and dying happen, by rule, by your hit points dropping below zero, they are part of the resolution of your hit points dropping below zero.

Since the interrupt is enabled by dropping to zero, and dropping to zero still requires you to add unconscious and dying to your character before it is finished, you perform the utility after the dropping below zero and before you are unconscious and dying, since that is the point where the triggering event or effect has arisen and the triggering event or effect hasn't finished.

If it weren't for that pesky rule that says when you drop to zero hit points or fewer you become unconscious and are dying, then you would be right, the interrupt would have to apply healing before taking the damage because there would be nothing left to finish after dropping to negative hit points. But, alas...

 

[Gryph]

If you're operating under the assumption that dying is triggered by dropping below zero hit points, then you cannot state that dying is a part of the resolution of dropping below zero hit points, any more than Bear's Endurance does.

But let's assume they are triggers. The dying condition is triggered but is not an interrupt: It happens immediately upon dropping below zero hit points. Bear's Endurance is an interrupt; it happens BEFORE dropping to zero or below.

If the question of resolving dying even comes up, you're already done dropping below zero.

When an adventurer drops to zero hit points or fewer, the adventurer is unconscious and is dying. Doesn't describe a trigger. Triggers have very specific definitions and this doesn't fit. Let's not assume they are triggers because we have no good reason to call them that. Dying isn't an action that gets triggered it is a Condition that gets applied to a character as part of a mechanical resolution.

I am saying that applying the unconscious and dying conditions to your character when your hit points drop belwo zero is part of resolving the event your hit points drop to zero or fewer.

Interrupts do not happen before their triggers, they happen before their triggers finish. I consider, from the wording of the rule in "death and dying", adding the stated conditions to part of finishing the triggering event. Therefore the utility happens between dropping to negative hit points and adding the unconscious/dying conditions.

Since being below zero hit points doesn't prevent you from taking an action, unconscious is what does. That is the moment when, as the rule states, "the triggering event has happened and the triggering event hasn't finished".

 

[nikadeemus327]

I have to to drop my hit points first or I haven't satified the trigger condition and I can't use Bear's Endurance.

You will drop your hit points first. This is the event that allows bear's endurance to be used. However, bear's endurnace has to be executed before you drop your hit points because its an interrupt. So you rewind. You don't drop your hit points and instead execute bear's endurance. After that you drop your hit points.

At this point the trigger doesn't still have to be true.

 

[Gryph]

You will drop your hit points first. This is the event that allows bear's endurance to be used.

We are in agreement at this point. So lets not repeat that part anymore.

However, bear's endurnace has to be executed before you drop your hit points because its an interrupt. So you rewind. You don't drop your hit points and instead execute bear's endurance. After that you drop your hit points.

And this is where we diverge. The rule for Immediate Interrupts gives you no authority to act before the trigger happened. It clearly and explicitly states it allows you to act after the triggering event arises and before the triggering event finisishes. In between start and finish, not before start.

If I haven't taken damage, I haven't triggered, I can't heal with the utility.

At this point the trigger doesn't still have to be true.

Agreed, this is why you never get the unconscious and dying conditions (and prone and helpless).

Your interpretation creates a lot of cases where the players are going to be rightfully upset cause they won't make sense. Forex:

Level 6 Warden with 64 total HP surge value of 16. Currently has 3 HP. He gets attacked and takes 24 points of damage. Player goes "Aha, Bear's Endurance is just the ticket to keep me on my feet."

You say, "Ok Bear's Endurance gives you a surge so your at 19 hp when you take the damage. Looks like your still dying."

Player calls you names that violate the board's TOS.

 

[nikadeemus327]

And this is where we diverge. The rule for Immediate Interrupts gives you no authority to act before the trigger happened. It clearly and explicitly states it allows you to act after the triggering event arises and before the triggering event finisishes. In between start and finish, not before start.

As soon as you drop your hit points the trigger has finished.