D&D 5E Warlock, Hex, and Short Rests: The Bag of Rats Problem

[Yunru]

And why does that happen? Because the game mechanics behind spell durations and how Long and Short Rests work allow you to do it. Not because there's any narrative reason in-world for why this should happen.

So don't bother trying to justify it. It's a waste of time. Take the game mechanic cookie that your DM is giving you and eat it happily.

Actually I just gave a perfectly valid in-world reason. You even kindly quoted it.

 

[Jester David]

Wait... so the caster carry's around a bag of rats. Because that seems like something you could buy in a store and rats - that can chew through wood and cement - totally wouldn't escape.
Then you cast hex on a rat. So hex is up at the start of the day. Then you rest because the RAW says you "regain all expended spell slots".

Okay, with you so far.

Then, you kill the rat at the start of combat, releasing the hex to target another creature.
But... that requires an action rather and a bonus action than a bonus action. So you're up a spell slot but down a round of combat. Oh, and you need to figure out which rat in the bag of rats you cursed. Did you take it out and put it on a leash or something?
And you could fail to kill that rat with a poor roll.

What happens if the rat escapes? There goes your hex.

It's such a ridiculous tactic that should in no way work.

 

[Yunru]

Wait... so the caster carry's around a bag of rats. Because that seems like something you could buy in a store and rats - that can chew through wood and cement - totally wouldn't escape.
Then you cast hex on a rat. So hex is up at the start of the day. Then you rest because the RAW says you "regain all expended spell slots".

Okay, with you so far.

Then, you kill the rat at the start of combat, releasing the hex to target another creature.
But... that requires an action rather and a bonus action than a bonus action. So you're up a spell slot but down a round of combat. Oh, and you need to figure out which rat in the bag of rats you cursed. Did you take it out and put it on a leash or something?
And you could fail to kill that rat with a poor roll.

What happens if the rat escapes? There goes your hex.

It's such a ridiculous tactic that should in no way work.

Actually you need only hex the rat then kill it. Any round after that is a subsequent round, even if hours have passed. No need to only do it once combat starts.

Honestly the more confusing thing about Hex is that if you cast it, you can only cast a Cantrip that turn with your action. But if it was already up and you're merely transfering it, go ahead, cast that level X spell.

 

[Warpiglet]

Wait... so the caster carry's around a bag of rats. Because that seems like something you could buy in a store and rats - that can chew through wood and cement - totally wouldn't escape.
Then you cast hex on a rat. So hex is up at the start of the day. Then you rest because the RAW says you "regain all expended spell slots".

Okay, with you so far.

Then, you kill the rat at the start of combat, releasing the hex to target another creature.
But... that requires an action rather and a bonus action than a bonus action. So you're up a spell slot but down a round of combat. Oh, and you need to figure out which rat in the bag of rats you cursed. Did you take it out and put it on a leash or something?
And you could fail to kill that rat with a poor roll.

What happens if the rat escapes? There goes your hex.

It's such a ridiculous tactic that should in no way work.

I was also wondering why the rats would not attack one another in such stressful conditions but this fact (they chew through buildings for the love of pete!) pretty much puts this to rest. Has anyone specifically noted they can escape anything but perhaps some metal cages?!

I think people just need to make a call about what works for their game. And it varies...and people that play warlocks should simply ask the DM how they want to handle it IF it makes a difference to them.

I play Warlocks. I love them. And I would play with bag o rats, without bag o rats whatever.

I lied. I refuse to be burdened by bag of rodents. Whatever DM says is what I am going with...

 

[DEFCON 1]

Actually I just gave a perfectly valid in-world reason. You even kindly quoted it.

Yes, a perfectly valid in-world reason whose only justification for its existence is the game mechanics.

Unless you want to try and argue that an author that was designing the magical physics of their world they were writing (without the benefit of game mechanics) would actually add in this special sneaky physics-breaking rule just because. Not for any legitimate story-reason, but "just because".

If "just because" works for you, then great! Good gaming! Glad it works for you. But then there's then no reason for trying to convince the rest of us. We don't care.

 

[jgsugden]

If it doesn't break the game, do what is fun for the players. This does not break the game regardless of which approach you take. Thus, ask the warlock which approach is more fun for them and adopt it.

 

[Yunru]

Yes, a perfectly valid in-world reason whose only justification for its existence is the game mechanics.

Unless you want to try and argue that an author that was designing the magical physics of their world they were writing (without the benefit of game mechanics) would actually add in this special sneaky physics-breaking rule just because. Not for any legitimate story-reason, but "just because".

If "just because" works for you, then great! Good gaming! Glad it works for you. But then there's then no reason for trying to convince the rest of us. We don't care.

What special sneaky physics breaking rule (except, y'know, magic as a concept )?

You have mana/magic/od/whatever, and it replenishes over time. For most casters it takes a period of 8 hours rest. For Warlocks, it only takes one. Mana is consumed only on casting (at least in most cases), so it's entirely plausible for a spell to last long enough that you've regained the expended mana before it's concluded.

 

[Jester David]

Actually you need only hex the rat then kill it. Any round after that is a subsequent round, even if hours have passed. No need to only do it once combat starts.

Honestly the more confusing thing about Hex is that if you cast it, you can only cast a Cantrip that turn with your action. But if it was already up and you're merely transfering it, go ahead, cast that level X spell.

It is something I'd like to get an official response from Crawford on. Has anyone tweeted him the "regain spellslots while concentrating/ duration active" question?

 

[the Jester]

So first, I don't have a problem with the 'maintain hex through a short rest' part of this tactic. I don't think it's overpowered, nor do I think it's abusive. I think it's both RAW and RAI.

The bag of rats, though... the damned bag of rats. *Shakes head*

I decided in 3.0 that if your tactic relies on a bag of rats, I find it detestable. I am very likely to disallow it on principle, though in this case I really like the "make the micromanagement of rats not worth the effort" approach.

Do this without a goddamned bag of rats and I have no problem with it. Cast hex during your first combat and roll with it all day. But keep your rats out of it.

 

[TriBeCa99]

This is the core of the discussion, I guess. It also makes the whole arguing over this topic almost pointless.

I think you just won the thread.

What you are saying here basically is that characters know they live in a world dictated by game mechanics, not by any sort of cohesive "story physics" the DM came up with for how their campaign world works.

No, I'm saying the characters know they live in a world with cohesive "story physics" that works in such a way that if a warlock gets up in the morning, hexes any creature, kills it, and then rests for an hour, she can then continue hexing new creatures at will and is still able to cast two spells before having to rest for an hour in order to cast more spells. If the DM changes the way the world works because they don't like this, that's completely fine. But a player or a character noticing that the world works in this way is not automatically abusing a mechanical system that is completely divorced from the world in which the character lives. The mechanical system we use to play this game literally defines the parameters of the "physics" (and I guess metaphysics) of the world the characters live in. And the rules are also pretty clear that the DM can change these rules as they see fit. But I can't really see how a player is doing anything wrong by a) asking to check that their understanding of the RAW is in fact how the world works, and b) having their character make use of this fact if this is how the world the character lives in works. I *can* see that a player would be doing something wrong if they continued to whine about after being told "no."