D&D 5E Warlording the fighter

[Jester David]

It might sound that way. But it really isn't. Temp hps nicely work for inspiring people /before/ the battle. Restoring hps, though, is critical to getting allies back into the battle, and it's something Warlords could do quite well.

Warlords could do healing adequately. Every other leader in the game was better. If the CharOp boards are to be believed. It is their focus and all.

And temp hp work just fine in combat. It soaks a hit and prevents you going down. Plus, it lengthens the adventuring day unlike triggering Hit Dice, as spending HD in combat is the same daily healing as spending them during a short rest. Temp hp just means less damage you need to heal with your Hit Dice after a couple combats.

Depended on the build, there were 54 healing powers, so you could choose to have a lot of healing, and the Inspiring Build, in particular could heal in the same league as the cleric (not the Pacifist Cleric, of course).

Burning all your resources as a warlord trying to be a great healer is incredibly inefficient, like trying to build a wizard tank. It can work, but if you focused on healing with any other leader class you'd be better off.

Nonsense. Every class with Cure Wounds on it's list has healing as a feature, and many, many other things, just by having a spell list. The 'cost' of adding healing ability to a class is trivial - heck, it is arguably a burden in return for which the class is given /more/ resources and other abilities.

A 1st level cleric or bard can cast cure wounds twice. Or something much, much more interesting.
To be balanced, a warlord can do something equal to a the divine domain power/ bardic inspiration feature, a 1st level spell one/day, and heal 1d8 once. It is literally a third of their class features.

The iconic parts of the warlord are imparting movement, granting extra attacks, boosting initiative, plus the standard leader stuff of bonuses to attack, damage, rerolled saves, etc.
Which of those are you going to give up at level one for healing?
Healing was the least interesting thing a warlord can do. It was mandatory in 4e but if it can be replaced or minimized I say do it.

Definitely. There's no need to rope any class into a hard 'role' in 5e. The healing abilities need to be there, and be worthy of what the Warlord could always do, but they needn't be mandatory. It'd probably be rare for a Warlord not in a party with a magic healer or two to eschew them, but choice is better than no choice, even if it means every party TPK'd at first level until you learn to make a different one.

Like I said, it'd be better as something you can opt into.

 

[The_Gneech]

On the reskinning bards issue - a voice of support for [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] and [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] in reply to [MENTION=82555]The_Gneech[/MENTION].Spells are embedded enough into the 5e fiction as distinct little mini-rituals that are subject to counterspelling, anti-magic and the like that I don't find the idea of "reskinning" them as personality and gentle words of encouragement very appealing.

That's perfectly valid and is largely a matter of your group's play style. My interest is in finding a way to make something "warlordy" with the resources at hand, and I freely admit that a "spells as martial abilities reskin" is something that would take a lot of buy-in from the DM.

Speaking as the primary DM of the group myself [1], I'd be totally fine with it if someone brought it to my table, although I might put restrictions on it like "only works on allies within 30 feet who can see or hear and understand you" or something along those lines to balance the "won't get counterspelled/dispelled because it's not really a spell" implication. But what individual DMs will allow at the table vs. what's allowed in organized play or whatnot are also very different things, so if you're in that context and you really, really want a non-casty warlord, an official class would certainly be the only way to go.

Either way, I'm grateful to this thread for making me realize just how warlordy my bard is. It isn't a pattern I had noticed before now!

-The Gneech

[1] Which is why my poor bard is still only 4th level. She only gets played 1/3 of the time!

 

[fuindordm]

The bard isn't a bad fit conceptually, and the Inspiration mechanic is pretty great, but the magic stops it pretty directly. Ditch the spellcasting (a la the ranger) and you've got a good runner, but if you ditch the spellcasting from a full spellcaster, it'sH not all that different from whipping up a new class, anyway.

That's what I'm saying! What on Earth do you give a class to make up for the fact that it no longer has the hope of gaining high-level spells? If you look at the fighter and rogue, you give the class DPR.

For the warlord, I think it would have to be giving the WHOLE PARTY DPR. Not just more inspiration dice, but high-level class features that let every ally benefit from a single die. I think this is possible without forcing spell slots on the class and without breaking the "warlords are mundane" story.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's what I'm saying! What on Earth do you give a class to make up for the fact that it no longer has the hope of gaining high-level spells? If you look at the fighter and rogue, you give the class DPR.

For the warlord, I think it would have to be giving the WHOLE PARTY DPR. Not just more inspiration dice, but high-level class features that let every ally benefit from a single die. I think this is possible without forcing spell slots on the class and without breaking the "warlords are mundane" story.

Yeah - imagine if the "noble", instead of getting extra attacks, granted extra attacks to allies.

In fact, you could do a half-measure: a fighter subclass that could forgo any number of their attacks and use a bonus action to direct up to one companion per forgone attack to attack (or use a cantrip?) would be well in line with that, though it wouldn't get the "replacement healer" schtick (which you might be able to do by having them forgo attacks to heal...though that starts getting a little iffy).

 

[fuindordm]

That could work... it wouldn't resolve the problem of warlords having high DPR themselves, though.

You'd want to give the player an incentive to grant their extra attacks to other PCs, like a temp HP rider.

And I'd like to see some mid-to-high level abilities that let them boost their entire side, so that they really start to have the feeling of a commander of armies and not just a NCO.

Hmm... it's a little packed but it might fit in a subclass.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That could work... it wouldn't resolve the problem of warlords having high DPR themselves, though.

You'd want to give the player an incentive to grant their extra attacks to other PCs, like a temp HP rider.

And I'd like to see some mid-to-high level abilities that let them boost their entire side, so that they really start to have the feeling of a commander of armies and not just a NCO.

Hmm... it's a little packed but it might fit in a subclass.

We take our battlemaster. We give them that above power to surrender any number of attacks to give them to any number of allies (so at 3rd level they could influence 2 allies, by 20th they're up to 8, which is a bit like giving a party of four two rounds of attacks). We let them spend Superiority Dice to apply a maneuver to any ally they've granted an attack to. Scratch out "temporary" from Rally add one for saving throws.

(We don't worry about the help-as-a-bonus-action thing - they can Action Surge, so they can Help + Give An Attack, and the attack-giving can come with saving throws/healing/movement/etc.)

The rest of the story can be as per battlemaster normal-style.

That would give them

• An at-will buff (Action Surge to Help)
• The ability to nova and affect the whole party at higher levels (give up attacks to give allies attacks with riders)
• The ability to get 'em back in the fight (hp's aren't "temporary")

Frig, that's small enough to fit in a feat, though it'd be kind of a niche feat. Maybe to keep in line with Warlord flava, we have the fighter give up heavy armor as a trade-off (the ability's a little too good to just give it to 'em without spending SOMETHING). For aesthetics, you could just say that reg'lar battlemasters and champions don't start with heavy armor, but get it at 3rd.

I imagine they didn't do it this way starting off because they wanted the player of the battlemaster to feel like they were the hero, so the wanted to limit the "princess-ing," but I'm not hating it for those that want to be bigger princesses. And it's certainly less hassle than a brand new class.

 

[Ashrym]

That could work... it wouldn't resolve the problem of warlords having high DPR themselves, though.

You'd want to give the player an incentive to grant their extra attacks to other PCs, like a temp HP rider.

And I'd like to see some mid-to-high level abilities that let them boost their entire side, so that they really start to have the feeling of a commander of armies and not just a NCO.

Hmm... it's a little packed but it might fit in a subclass.

Granting extra attacks is more powerful than making those attacks. Different classes balance damage differently based on how many attacks the class typically uses. Fighters, for example, do multiple smaller attacks than a single attack from a rogue. Granting attacks off turn generally means always selecting big single attack damage options and giving the warlord the best damage available for the same action cost.

That's why those abilities are restricted. A person could not, for example, consider extra attack and granting 2 attacks as equal. The warlord would just choose a rogue and paladin or something, and his own attacks are irrelevant whether decent or mediocre because he always has the best damage attacks on the team.

That's why commander's strike currently runs off of superiority dice and reactions. It's to keep the option available but restricted. A battlemaster can still give the rogue an attack, but not often so it creates a higher damage options for the ability but doesn't get out of hand.

5e restricts such abilities intentionally because they can get overpowered fast combined with other abilities.

 

[aramis erak]

What is the Battlemaster fighter, if not a nod to 4e? What it seems what people want is an exact copy of the 4e warlord. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that was never promised. Not only that, but it would be a broken class because as mentioned in the other thread we had about this six months ago, it would be WAY too OP compared to all the others with the features that people wanted in it.

Way less potent, that's what. Similar in basic concept, very different in execution. In part, because there's no attempt to make it have total parity of effects with all the other (especially magical) classes. In part, because the limits are more sensible than the 4E Warlord's - less Big Trouble in Little China or Prince of Persia, more Prince of Thieves or 13th Warrior. In part, because it shares the majority of abilities with other fighter types.

Not quite the same effect space - the Warlord's effect space is more ranged than the Battlemaster. The Warlord is effect-wise comparable to the Valor College Bard, and the Priest of War in range and breadth of effects (albeit the Warlord in 4E is actually less broadly competent than either 5E caster). Thematically closer to the Battlemaster.

With Mr. Mearls strongly implied assurances that the filling in all the niches won't be done by ensuring every power source had a version for every niche, a proper warlord is unlikely. So either play the thematic-equivalent Battlemaster, or play the power-space equivalent Bard of Valor or War Priest.

 

[Minigiant]

Well maybe first we should look how all the powers ad features of a level 1 4th edition warlord are described. Then translate them to 5th if possible.

Combat Leader: +2 initiative to party.
Commanding Presence: An ally's action point either heals or grants attack roll bonus.
Inspiring Word: healing word variant.
Commander's Strike: An ally makes an attack with damage bonus.
Furious Smash: Attack and deal weak damage and grant an ally a bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Viper Strike: Attack and the target provokes opporutity attack from ally even if they shift.
Wolf Pack Tactics: Attack and one ally can shift.
Guarding Attack: Attack and an adjacent ally gets AC bonus vs enemy attack
Hammer and Anvil: Attack and enemy adjacent can attack for free with damage bonus.
Leaf in the Wind: Attack and you and adjacent ally swap places.
Warlord Favor: Attack and ally within 5 square gets attack bonus vs target
Bastion of Defense: Attack and allies within 5 squares gets defense bonus and THP
Lead the Attack: Attack hard and allies get attack roll bonus for encounter
Pin the Foe: Attack and target cannot shift if adjacent to you and an ally
WRO: Attack hard and whenever you or ally hits then can slide and ally.


Now all the powers and features that just deal with movemnt (slides, swaps, pushes) don't translate well to 5th as positioning doesn't matter as much. That's Wolf Pack Tactics, Viper's Strike, Leaf in the Wind, White Raven, Onslaught, and Pin the foe.

At level 1, a fighter has second wind. Perhaps a warlord could get Inspiring Word but limit it to the end of rests like Song of Rest. The Warlord still heals, just not in combat.

Inspiring word:
You issue inspiring words of encourage and provide first aid during the time of a short rest. If you of any creature you tend to rolls a Hit Die during a short rest to restore hit points, the minimum number of hit point you or they regain from the rolls is equal to twice your Intelligence or Charisma modifier.
At level X, you or a creature who took a short rest tended by you may use your Intelligence or Charisma modifier in place of their Constitution score when regaining hit points from spending Hit Dice.

And a fighter also get's Fighting style. Maybe more tactical styles:

Tactical Fighting: When you attack with a melee weapon, you can use a bonus action to give an ally withing 5 feet of you or your target +2 to damage rolls against that target

Leader: When initiative is rolled, you and each ally within 50 feet of you gain +2 to the roll.

At level 2, the fighter gets Action Surge. That could be translated to Commander's Presence. They get out and action point and the target as a reaction and bonus.

Commander's Surge:
At level 2 as a bonus action, you can grant an ally to perform any one action as an reaction on your turn. Once you use this feature, you must complete a short or long rest before you do it again. Starting at level 17, you can use it twice before a rest.

And at level 5, a fighter's Extra Attack can be swapped with Hammer and Anvil. It can work like the Ranger's

Hammer And Anvil:
When you take the Attack action, you can command an ally within 5 feet of the target to make one attack against the target as a reaction.
The number of attacks increases to two at level 11 and three at level 20.

 

[Obryn]

Burning all your resources as a warlord trying to be a great healer is incredibly inefficient, like trying to build a wizard tank. It can work, but if you focused on healing with any other leader class you'd be better off.

Off topic, but... Inspiring warlords are actually first rate. Warlords are the only class who can get an extra use of their Inspiring Word with a feat at Paragon, and have a bevy of feats to improve them further. And they have a great minor action utility which tosses out 2 surges. And there's Stand The Fallen. Etc...

/derail