D&D 5E Warlording the fighter

[El Mahdi]

@El Mahdi, I might get a chance to look at your ideas next week!

Cool! No obligations, but I'd be really interested in your feedback. Thanks!

 

[Obryn]

Sorry, man - been busy.

 

[El Mahdi]

Sorry, man - been busy.

It's Cool. If or when you have a chance, it would be appreciated.

 

[El Mahdi]

Still sifting through feedback. May take a little longer than I expected. I'll have a revised draft by Monday of next week (14 September).

Until then, I'll keep working - and if Tony, Obryn, and Pemerton give feedback, I'll incorporate that also.

 

[El Mahdi]

As I said in the other thread, the main bits missing are...

Agreed. I proposed the new fighting style...

Could either of you point me to this other thread? I've been looking back through the forum but I haven't found it - or maybe overlooked it. I want to mine it for ideas...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Command Presence
The mere presence of a Warlord within an adventuring group instills confidence and facilitates synergistic cooperation. The Warlord’s competent direction imparts a sense to all their allies that someone always has their back. This gives allies a boldness to take chances they normally wouldn’t, and do so with sureness they normally wouldn’t possess.
Once per round, any one member of the Warlord’s group can apply advantage to any one roll – be it an attack, a save, or a check – but the group must collectively agree to its use. This is not cumulative and cannot be carried from round to round; each round has one and only one usage for the group.

This catches the idea of Commanding Presence, and sounds good in concept, the actual mechanic, though broadly applicable and not lacking in effectiveness (gaining/granting advantage usually takes an action), is pretty bland compared to Commanding Presence, which gave each flavor of warlord it's own thing.

Inspiring Word
A Warlord builds a significant rapport with each of their comrades, learning what motivates each one of them. They know their compatriots so well they can rejuvenate and refocus them with just a word.
Once per short rest you can encourage or call out to a faltering companion and bolster their resolve; even allowing them to shake off some of the accumulated wear and tear of combat. Doing so either allows an ally to recover hit points equivalent to the Warlord’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier times ½ the allies level (minimum of 1), or free an ally of non-magical fear (the Frightened condition), or reduce any effects due to exhaustion by one level.
The ally must be within hearing range of the Warlord, and cannot be at 0 hit points. At 5th level they can do this two times per short rest, three times at 10th level, and four times at 15th level.

You might just as well not have hp restoration if you can't use it to stand up a fallen ally. Though some h4ters made a point of asserting that 0hp = unconscious and unconscious = deaf, even though the latter is demonstrably false, even if that point had been valid, it'd be worth it to bend credulity a bit in the name of fantasy heroics and playability and let it work on dropped allies.

Also, this is one of those places where 4e and 5e did things pretty differently. In both 4e & 5e, hit points are a daily resource that face attrition over the course of the adventuring day. In 4e, natural healing in the form of surges was the major source of hps, and Inspiring Word (and most literal 'healing' as well) was an encounter-resource surge-trigger, rather than a hp resource in itself. In 5e, HD are a less significant hp resource, with daily hps, consumable potions, and spells being far more important in managing hps. This version of Inspiring Word is 'too 4e' in being a short-rest resource.

I do like it being able to affect exhaustion, though.

Call of Restoration
With the same rapport they use to inspire their allies, they can even sometimes call them back from the edge of death itself.
Through a combination of vocal exhortation and physical shaking, you can attempt to rouse a fallen ally (at 0 hit points). They must be able to hear you (not Deafened) and must be adjacent to you. The ally can immediately make a death saving throw, even if they have already done so for the round, and make the roll with a bonus equal to the Warlord’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier. If successful, the ally is returned to consciousness and recovers hit points equal to the Warlord’s Charisma or Wisdom modifier times ½ the allies level (minimum of 1).
You may attempt this once per long rest. At 7th level you may attempt this twice per long rest, and three times at 17th level.

So the Warlord can stand up an adjacent fallen ally once at 1st level, all the way up to thee times at 17th. A cleric with Cure Wounds prepped, OTOH, can do it three times at first level and well, a whole lot at 17th. That's some very strict strict-inferiority there.

I get what you're trying to do here, though, I think: you're trying for one specific bit of genre-emulation in the distinction. I don't think it's quite necessary. Let Inspiring Word restore from 0, remove the explicit hearing/shaking requirements, maybe link it to a 'command radius' or something. Then, note in a side-bar that DMs may decide what sort of 'inspiration' seems appropriate to them for the situation and the tone of the campaign their running. It might run from a character being 'inspired' even when the warlord can't act or isn't present (he just remembers something inspiring) to inspired by example, to vocal exhortation, to physical shaking.

Also, I'm sensing StatMod*level/2 as a standard, here. I'm not sure it's a great formula. Proportional to level is good, certainly. OTOH, HD (whether expended or not) could be a more proportional-to-class standard (it seems like it'd be fair for an inspired barbarian or fighter to get more hps than an inspired rogue or wizard). Stat mod as a multiplier rather than an adder, I'm not so sure about, either - has 5e done that anywhere else?

Tactical Leader
A leader can unify and focus a group, making a group greater than its parts; but a leader that doesn’t have the trust or cooperation of their compatriots is less than useful, and becomes a burden to the group - a catalyst for dysfunction.
A leader may give up any or all of their actions to be used by any ally; especially move and attack actions, and including bonus actions, and reactions (if appropriate). These actions can be used by the ally even if they have already acted in the round, and may still use their own unused actions after using the Warlord’s actions. Any actions given in this manner must be used in a manner consistent with their original purpose (move action must be used as a move action, etc.).
The Warlord player must designate what the action or actions are to be used for (such as “Aleric is in trouble - disengage from your foe, and go back him up”), and the character receiving the actions must use them consistent with the direction (the DM can determine if consistency is maintained if a receiving character’s player “calls an audible” or otherwise alters or interprets the “spirit” of the directions).
Allied players can also ask the Warlord player for their actions; such as, “Do you want me to back-up Aleric?” But the Warlord player still designates what actions they are giving up and what they are to be used for.
Players can disregard the directions of the Warlord’s player (“Aleric can take care of himself!”), but then those actions the Warlord gave up are lost for the round (they still expended the time issuing directives).
If players consistently disregard the Warlord's directions (DM discretion), then the DM may decide that the group has also lost synergy and can no longer benefit from the Warlord's Command Presence.

Almost strikes me as a better guide to designing specific maneuvers (or whatever) than a general ability. It's certainly flexible enough, in as far as 5e goes in providing possible actions, which is potentially pretty cool, just like the Cunning-Action-like ability, below.

Again, I think you're going a little too deep into the tone of the fiction side, but at least you're keeping it 'DM discretion.'

Oh, and a potential danger (or feature) of it being this general is that the Warlord might easily end up with his own actions not ever being worth taking. That was something you could do with the warlord, intentionally, with specific build choices, but this could have it happening to any Warlord as a matter of course...

And, while the action economy management is cool, action economy is less important in 5e than it was in 4e - and management of daily resources much more important. So, for instance, it's potentially effective for the Warlord to have a caster use his action to cast an extra spell, but that spell is still coming out of the casters' limited slots - and if the Warlord were just replaced with another caster, you could do the same, and have twice as many slots.

Bonus Action
Beginning at 6th level, a Warlord’s quick thinking enables them to move, act, or give direction more quickly. You can take a bonus action each of your turns in combat. This action can only be used to take an Attack, Command Action, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action.
At 13th level this increases to two bonus actions per turn.

Like the Rogue's Cunning Action, this is kinda cool, a simple mechanic that opens up a fair range of tricks. Obviously you can't call it 'Bonus Action,' as that's already the action type. It should be phrased 'use your bonus action to...' since everyone does get a bonus action every turn, just doesn't always have something they can do with it.

Action Inspiration
You can inspire others through calm reinforcement or inspirational counsel. Once per short rest, you can inspire an ally attempting an action to greater success. That ally can add the roll of a d6 to their check roll. The action that the inspiration applies to must be specifically stated (picking a lock to get the group through a door, crafting an item for a mission, disabling a trap, etc.).

That's very like the Inspiration mechanic, which is fine for verisimilitude but maybe weakens said mechanic (which is one of those carrot-for-RP tricks) - assuming it doesn't stack, which'd make sense. A random bonus gives an obvious comparison to Guidance, which is unlimited-use, as a Cantrip, but only d4. Nothing would stop the two from stacking, either.

Strategic Leader (in-work)
The Warlord has learned how to apply their leadership skills and expanded their combat knowledge to include leading large groups. At 11th level and once per long rest, they can apply advantage to an action that a unit larger than their group, but no bigger than a company, undertakes. At 16th level, they can do this twice per long rest with a unit larger than their group but no bigger than a company, or once per long rest with a unit larger than a company up to the size of a battalion/regiment. At 20th level they can do this three times per long rest for a unit larger than their group but no bigger than a company, twice per long rest with a unit up to regiment/battalion size, or once per long rest with an entire army.
(explore faster than normal march, advantage to checks for fatigue due to a forced march, etc.)
…look at mass combat rules…

Not sure this'd come up. Large numbers tend to break 5e due to bounded accuracy, anyway.

Rally the Troops
Once per long rest, a Warlord can motivate and focus their group with a stirring speech (whatever group they are leading at the time, be it their adventuring group, a company, or a whole army). Doing so either allows all members of the group to recover hit points equivalent to the Warlord’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier times ½ the allies level (minimum of 1), or free all members of the group from non-magical fear (the Frightened condition), or reduce any effects due to exhaustion by one level.
The group must be within hearing range of the Warlord, and only affects members not at 0 hit points.

Any hp-restoration or hp-management that can't stand up an ally at 0 hps is decidedly inferior. I can't tell if this is supposed to be an in-combat Action or an out-of-combat function like Inspiring Leader, and that makes a big difference - 'rally' really implies in-combat.

Command Actions (in-work)
Individual tactics or maneuvers - based on Battlemaster maneuvers, 4E Warlord powers, etc.

This'd have to be the meat of it, where player choice and character versatility can be provided. The Warlord had a lot of exploits, not quite as many as the fighter, but hundreds, and they did a wider variety of things. In addition, leadership could impact more than just combat. It'd be easy to throw a bland, non-stacking, mechanic like advantage, and doing so wouldn't lack in effectiveness, but it'd be pretty dull, like a Cleric who does nothing but cast Bless (which, according to some game reports we've heard around here, isn't much of an exaggeration).

5e has put a lot of it's eggs in the spellcasting basket, a huge chunk of the book is devoted to spells and 30 of 38 builds cast spells, leveraging that resource to give them versatility, choice & effectiveness without necessitating a lot of page count in each class, individually. Since the Warlord needs comparable ability, but can't leverage the game's deep investment in spells, it'd need a surprisingly 'long' write-up...

 

[El Mahdi]

Gracias Senor! Much appreciated. I'll put it with the rest of the feedback I compiled, though I was especially looking forward to yours.

It's taking me a little longer to work through it and make changes than I thought. This design stuff isn't easy...but it is fun!

Again, Thanks!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

for the most part others have said what I think much better then I can... however I like the idea of mixing and matching the bard inspiration dice a bit with the battle master supiority dice myself...

a set of dice that come back on short and long rests that can be used to power special abilities (healing, commander strike) and can be used as a generic buff

 

[Tony Vargas]

for the most part others have said what I think much better then I can... however I like the idea of mixing and matching the bard inspiration dice a bit with the battle master supiority dice myself..

Yeah, there's bits and pieces that could be brought together, maybe. There's a germ of an idea there, I'm sure. I like the idea of leveraging Inspiration, too.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Quoted and taken out from under the spoiler block for [MENTION=6801319]Ainulindalion[/MENTION] to link in his discussion.

There's another idea I saw in passing that just might work for a Warlord as a Fighter sub-class, it'd be about as satisfying as a Psion as Sorcerer sub-class (@Remathilis can comment on just how intolerable that'd be), but, by the same token, it'd be easier than creating a new class.

The idea was to replace extra attacks with granting attacks, and the concept that it could support is the much narrower vision of the Warlord taken up by the 13th Age 'Commander' class.

In brief, the Commander Fighter Archetype would gain an ability called 'Command' that takes the place of an Attack and grants an ally an attack (as he levels up, he'd choose from a list of other Commands that grant other sub-actions or whole actions). As a rather brutal limiting factor, following the Command would take the ally's Reaction. Most commands would be at-will, some might have a recharge mechanic of some sort (probably not a rest-recharge) or face some other situational limits to use, or might require the ally to rest before being able to follow that same command, again. It'd have to be limited to small set of Commands, as the Battlemaster is to maneuvers, because of the very limited design pace left to a fighter archetype, but, the relative power of said commands could at least start at the power-level of the attack being sacrificed, rather than being limited to the power of a 'rider.'

The result would still have the fighter's single-target DPR potential while having options that could act as a force multiplier to other characters, so it'd be prettymuch impossible to balance - but that's a minor consideration in the context of 5e, let alone in the context of a wholly-optional (not in the Standard Game, 'opt-in') late addition to 5e. If a DM does introduce such a class, he'd also be expected to keep it relevant/contributing and balanced, as need in the course of the campaign.

This is rough and dashed-off, but might give a general idea:

Commander (Fighter Archetype)
There are leaders and there are followers, the archetypal Commander leads. Commanders may or may not have a formal rank in an actual military hierarchy, but even those that do not often affect such titles. Typically, the higher the Commander's level, the higher the rank he holds or styles himself as.
Those who model themselves on this archetype are decisive, charismatic fighters who exhort their allies to act without fear or hesitation in the heat of battle.

Voice of Command: The newly-minted Commander begins with two Commands, "Attack!" and "Rally!" These simple Commands are easily understood by any ally, even those that might have trouble understanding his language or hearing his exact words.

Drill: As he gains levels, the Commander can issue more and more sophisticated commands, but he must Drill his allies to respond them efficiently. At 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th levels the Commander gains several commands, but can have his allies Drilled in only one of them. (Thus an 18th level commander can have his allies Drilled in 4 different commands, in addition to Attack & Rally). As part of a short rest, the Commander can swap out one Drilled command for the allies present throughout that rest. He can swap out all his commands in the course of an extended rest. (It may not seem like much of a rest, but it's just the convenient rest mechanic available).
Inspiring Leader: At 6th level, the Commander gains the Inspiring Leader feat instead of the fighter's 6th level Ability Score Increase. If the character already has Inspiring Leader, he can choose a different feat or ASI as normal.

3rd level Commands:
Attack!: When the Commander notices or creates an opening, he uses a curt command, gesture or other signal to indicate the target to one of his allies.
The commander names the ally whom he commands and the enemy to target. The Ally can then make an attack using the weapon (or cantrip or other at-will ability that uses an attack roll) that he has ready against that target. Making the attack uses the Ally's Reaction instead of any action it might otherwise have required. If the Commander has Advantage against and/or is adjacent to the target, the ally's attack is made with Advantage. If the attack hits, it does additional damage equal to the Commander's INT mod. The Attack! command can be used in place of any attack the Commander is entitled to, at any time. There is no limit to how often an ally can be commanded to Attack!, but the ally must have a Reaction available to follow the command.

Rally!: The Commander exhorts an ally to get back in the fight. Even an ally dropped unconscious or seemingly all but dead might be roused, so fierce and determined is the call.
The Commander chooses an ally who can see him or is within the sound of his voice (unconscious allies typically can't see, but aren't rendered deaf). That ally can roll one of his HD to regain hps, adding the Commander's CHA mod to the roll.
The Rally! command can be used in place of an Attack on the Commander's turn. The ally must have HD remaining to benefit from the Rally! command. If the ally has already been Rallied since his last rest, he must make a CON save (DC 15) to benefit from the Command. If he has already been Rallied once in the current encounter, the DC is 20. Rally! does not cost the ally an action, just HD.

This is IT! You bolster an ally who seems un-ready for the coming battle.
When initiative is rolled, choose one ally who can see or hear you. You expend your Second Wind, and the ally gains the hps you roll as Temp hps. No action is required from you or the ally. You cannot use this command on the same ally again until that ally has completed a long rest.

7th Level Commands:

Get Behind Me! Use this command as your bonus action when you attack an enemy who is adjacent to one of your allies. If you hit, you inflict weapon dice damage, only (no bonuses), but the adjacent ally you command can use his reaction to move (through your space if necessary) so that you are now between him and the enemy you attack, this movement provokes no AoO from the enemy you hit. If you miss, the ally can disengage from the enemy as a Reaction, but must wait until his turn to move (such movement will not provoke an AoO from that enemy).

Charge! Use this command in place of an attack, and then move adjacent to an enemy. One of your allies may use his Reaction to move up to his speed and make a melee attack against that enemy, if he can reach it. You can use any other attacks you are entitled to before or after using this command, but any that you use to attack afterwards must be directed at the enemy you and your ally 'Charged.'

Get UP! Use this Command once as part of your own move on your turn. One ally of your choice can stand up as a Reaction.



10th Level Commands:

Form Up!: You allies can each move up to their speed as a reaction, the first ally to do so must end his move adjacent to the commander (if a grid is used, adjacent along a face, not a corner), creating a 'formation,' each other ally must end adjacent to an ally in the formation.

Push!: Use this Command as an Action onyour Turn. Your allies must be in formation with you. You and each ally who uses his Reaction to do so can make an attack against an adjacent enemy. Each must attack a different enemy. If any of the attacks hit, in addition to damage, each enemy adjacent to the formation (whether hit or attacked or not) is forced back 10' and the formation advances to stay adjacent to them. If an enemy would be forced into a dangerous area (like off a cliff, or into a fire) by the forced movement, he can make a STR save (DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + the lower of your CHA mod or the highest STR mod in the formation) to stand his ground adjacent to the danger.

Get DOWN! When one or more of your allies is forced to make a DEX save to avoid or reduce damage, you can give this command using your Reaction. The allies drop prone immediately. If the save was to avoid damage, your allies have advantage on the save. If the save was to reduce damage, your allies take the reduced damage on a failed save, and no damage on a successful save. You cannot use this Command again until you have taken a short rest. An ally who followed this command but failed the saving throw cannot benefit from it again until he has taken a long rest.


15th Level Commands:

Fire!: Acting as one, you & your allies unleash a devestating volley against your enemies
You designate a 'beaten zone' that you & your allies will attack into. The zone can be up to 20' deep and either 5' or 10' wide per attacker. Each ally who joins you in the attack must be able to make a ranged attack, and must use his Reaction. You and each ally who uses a reaction count as 'attackers.' If the zone is 5' per attacker or smaller, each attacker makes a full action worth of attack rolls (or a full-power attack), with a bonus to hit equal to your CHA modifier. If the zone is 10' per attacker, each attacker makes only one attack roll (or does only 1d of damage if he normally gets only 1 attack per acction, but does more than 1d of dmage with an at-will attack like a cantrip) and there is no attack bonus. Attacks are made against the average AC of all creatures in the zone (as determined or approximated by the DM). Once the number of hits are determined, the DM randomly assigns them among the creatures in the zone, with each one being struck no more than once in the case of a 10'/attacker zone, or twice for a 5'/attacker zone. This command uses your Action and you and your allies must be in formation. You and your allies must complete a short rest before you can use this command again.

It's a Trap! When an enemy or enemies is about to take a surprise round against one or more of your allies, you can issue this command to warn them. Instead of a surprise round, initiative is rolled normally. You cannot use this command again until you have taken a long rest. You also cannot use this command if any of the enemies acting in the surprise round were present the last time you used it.

18th Level Commands:
Stand Ready!: You snap an ally out of the fog of battle.
Choose an ally who can see or hear you who has used or the ability to use his Reaction. He now has a Reaction available until the start of his next turn. You cannot use this Command on the same ally again until after the end of his next turn.

Don't Die On Me!: The tenacity of life is an amazing thing, especially with you are there to help.
You touch (typically hold in your arms) an ally who is dying, taking ongoing damage that , or making a series of saves that could result in death or some similarly final fate. The ally makes an extra saving saving throw with your CHA mod as a bonus. If he succeeds, he is stabilized or the effect threatening him ends immediately. Failing this extra save has no effect (it does not count as a failed death save, for instance). Normally, using this command is an action, but, when an ally takes damage or fails a saving throw (including a death save) that would (or might) kill them, you can use this command as a Reaction if the ally is within one move of you, in which case you move to his side, suffering any consequences of that movement (if you are prevented from reaching him, you cannot complete the command).

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