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D&D 5E [Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?

Blackwarder

Adventurer
Back in the day when I used to run over dunes and hills carrying a ceramic vest, weapons and ammunition with thirty of my closest friends (actually I used to drive around in a 60 ton behemoth with the ability to annihilate everything in a 3 km radius) we had an Lt and we had a medic and when you got injured you didn't called for your Lt. you called the medic (or to your mother more often than not).


A combat leader job is to use his soldiers in the best way possible and keep their moral and fighting spirit up, it got nothing to do with treating wounds or healing. A good combat leader os 50% mother 50% seducer and 50% mean SOB and considering the fact that there is on't 100% of him it's not an easy task.


I played and DMed 4e for almost 4 years, two of them I played the great warlord Lars Ulrich and the healing part of it seem forced.


The way I see it we have two main issues in here, one being healing without a cleric and the other being what a warlord should be like in the game, personally I'm all in favor of having a leader speciality (and feats) with such an abilities like bonus on moral checks for henchmen or the ability to execute some cool maneuver for the all party, for example if you have a shield leader in the party than he can coordinate a shield wall and as a reaction the shield wall can open for a second and grab an opponent behind it, or the ability to coordinate attacks etc etc


Warder

 
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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I just do not understand this approach. Assuming you're going for a HP as Meat paradigm, Temp HP mean you are going to be kinda-sorta-hurt-but-not-for-real. The blow still hits. For the same damage. But it just doesn't have any impact. To me this is far more magical than hit point recovery. It's an invisible ablative force field. (As is DR).

Not at all...or not necessarily, am I suggesting "HP as Meat."

My understanding of the fictional justification for the Warlord [or anyone else] who has an "Inspirational" mechanic attached, that inspiration is/adds to your confidence, or morale, or determination, that is inspired within you (by virtue of the ability of the character inspiring you) to more "oomph." On the tactical/leadership side of things, perhaps it incorporates a bit of smart strategy or proper/safer movements...None of that needs be/says "HP as Meat." It says here's this little extra amount of non-meat that's helping you. It's a bonus of that part of HP which are specifically NOT meat. So, the "damage" whittles that bonus before you actually start taking damage to YOUR actual confidence/morale/determination...and then, eventually, meat.

Not using your own HP to soak up damage? I'd say that's a great boon to anyone...and doesn't strike me as necessarily "magical" at all.

Fair enough. That's one answer :)

S'only one I've got. :)
 

The Choice

First Post
Handwaving inventory considerations is fine. Having a class ability that makes nonmagical items magic is not (unless it's a magic class).

Yousay it's magical. You draw the line at that point, I draw it elsewhere (at a less restrictive place that opens up more design space for creative players).


The rules are badly designed in that hps are not meat and blood.

Two things : 1) If HPs are not an abstraction of a few elements, how do you model psionic damage, the chilling touch of the undead, etc.? 2) If we're throwing out years of understanding that HPs are an abstraction, then we also need to throw out the abstract nature of attack rolls, redefine the damage expectations of weapons and spells, create separate ways of tracking poison, environmental damage, along with the nature of what type of protection(s) armour provides, how character gain "HPs" (or their equivalent replacement), and how they can regain that resource. That's a lot of work, and I'm not sure the result would be something you could call D&D (unless you worked tirelessly on it for a few years or made the transition to such a game model a progressive process).

I'm pretty sure bards got cures at least in 2e. Paladins and rangers also had healing. The mage/wizard is really the only exception, which is indeed a D&D-ism.

Bards = nope, draws all her spells from the magic-user's (read wizard) list.
Rangers = nope, draws his spells from the Plant and Animal cleric spheres (gets his first spell at level 8, can't get additional, bonus spells, from high wisdom)
Paladins = gets lay on hands at first level, 1/day, 2 HPs per level. That's something I guess (more useful when you need a quick recovery and don't want to waste a cleric or druid's spell). Gets her first spell that can come from the Healing sphere at 9th level (at which time, it's a drop in the bucket depending on how lucky her group got with their hit dice, also doesn't get bonus spells from high wisdom).

Of course not. Who said they did? They do of course have sole control over instantaneous closing of potentially lethal wounds, because that isn't real, but long-term healing, not so much.

But what if it's not a wound? What if it's fatigue, or a psychic attack? What if it's just your "luck" that ran out or your "ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one" that just failed? Couldn't a not-magical healer do the trick then?

And with better health and healing rules, natural healing and alterations thereof could become more meaningful.

Offering an option or making the default option actually match what HPs represent in the game would be nice, yes.

That's only in your eyes though (perhaps in some others as well). Nonmagical characters aren't mudane at all. As has been well documented, the point at which d20 checks are "realistic" typically stops between 5th and 10th level. High level characters can do incredible things. Skills have open-ended and powerful applications.

Here's my problem, and I'll lay it out clearly. Non-magic man wants to achieve X effect. In first or second edition AD&D, he asks his DM how he can achieve it. DM thinks for a while, assigns an arbitrary difficulty to the task and asks non-magic man's player to roll once or more. The next time that player wants to achieve the same effect, there is no guarantee that the difficulty, number of rolls, etc. won't change.

3rd Edition "fixes" this by codifying a lot of effects into either skills or "combat maneuvres" that a character can attempt. The problem with the latter is that, for some reason, it's punishingly (and arbitrarily) difficult to succeed within the accepted fantasy milieu of the game (I get that it should be difficult to grapple a tank in a modern military game, but making a dragon fall on its scaly ass should be something an experienced character, be she a fighter or a wizard can reasonably do). At the same time, the game segregates the supernatural, mystical, and mythical to the strictly "magical" spectrum of things, while still using mythical, supernatural, and mystical exemplars for classes that have no access to such mechanics.

If you're talking about 17th level characters casting Wish, yes that's something that only wizards/sorcerers can do (and should be). If you're talking about doing useful things in the context of a typical game, fighters remain the most popular class in all versions of D&D (except possibly 4e; that I wouldn't know), and the nonmagical classes in general are more impactful in most situations. Magic offers some fantastical, "limit-breaking" effects, but it hardly renders the other characters irrelevant.

Polymorph, Knock, Tenser's transformation, Divine Power... I could go on naming spells or class features that completely trample the actual abilities of non-magical characters. Knock is really the poster child for this : it's a spell that renders an entire skill pointless. The rogue has to roll a check with a non-impossible chance that he might fail, but the wizard can just wave her fingers, no checks required, and open the door. But, you'll say, she can only do it once, maybe twice, before she runs out. That's when the rogue'll shine! Sure, I answer, but only if there are other locks in the dungeon or if the PCs don't rest before meeting another one. Same goes for fights : in this encounter, the cleric completely outpaced the fighter in efficiency, but surely she'll get a chance to be the hero in the next one.

It's good for a game to make playstyle assumptions, but it doesn't mean you get to not take into account the consequences of the pacing mechanics you included in games with non-standard pacing/games with players who understand the importance of spells/abilities/resources in successful encounters. The best part is, this also works with how HPs relate to the game.

Not really, no.

Conan, to name just one. Or even in D&D-inspired fiction : Drizz't, Bruenor, Wulfgar, most of the heroes of the Lance, etc. King Arthur, Beowolf... I could go on.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Yousay it's magical. You draw the line at that point, I draw it elsewhere (at a less restrictive place that opens up more design space for creative players).

Without stepping into the wider debate on the nature of hit points, I don't think that citing such healing as being non-magical is either less restrictive, or allows for greater design space.

The reason is that keeping this non-magical seems to imply that it's always going to be inspiration-based (e.g. get them to grit their teeth through it, etc.). Whereas magic can be almost anything - a small blessing that they've secured from a god/demon/something to heal others, magically-induced short term regeneration that they stole from the notes of a clerical researcher, a quasi-psychic effect that they can manifest, an affinity with the Positive Energy Plane that they can draw from, etc.
 

To keep making sure I'm on the right track, as I'm digging into your posts, your case seems to be "D&D must include non-magical spike healing as a class feature or else fail to meet my needs as a gaming system."

You have my case completely wrong.

My case is D&D does include non-magical spike healing. All historical versions of D&D I am aware of have had this, and as far as I am aware all playtest packets of D&D Next have this. If you are designing a game from the ground up without spike healing then that's fine. I play a number of games without spike healing. And they work.

If you are Mike Mearls or otherwise in charge of D&D Next and are able to take Cure Light Wounds and all low level burst healing away from the Cleric and the magical healers (or turn it into healing over time), and the rest of D&D then the need of the Warlord to have spike healing vanishes.

Most of my posts thus far have been trying to demonstrate how your stated needs can be met without non-magical spike healing,

And your posts so far have been utterly independent of D&D. As this is a thread about D&D and D&D Next in specific, most of your posts thus far have been the equivalent of starting off as a theoretical physicist by telling me to imagine a spherical_cow. Well, yes. I could start by imagining a spherical cow. But I've a four legged cud chewing manure maker right in front of me. And it is in no way spherical. So conversations that start off by assuming a spherical cow have very little to do with the actual process of getting milk.

It reminds me of my conversations in undergrad as a student of religion -- this is like trying to talk a religious fundamentalist out of believing that their particular religious rules are essential for peace and happiness. Clearly, no other rules are going to be appropriate, because you already have the correct ones, and all the game system needs to do is adhere to the correct rules, or be forever unacceptable in your eyes.

You're veering into personal attack territory there.

Non-magical spike healing as a class feature isn't the only way to have a competitive defensive mechanic in a game where magical spike healing as a class feature exists, though.

Except that as I have pointed out it is far, far the most efficient. Because you can use it reactively rather than proactively. And balancing any other approach would be a nightmare. I went into why it's so much more effective than other methods in the OP - of which the largest part is that you can apply it after the effect to counteract the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Not one of your spherical cows that I recall has even touched on the point that spike healing can be fundamentally far more efficiently applied than any type of prospective damage mitigation. Spherical cows are no good at all when you sell beef by the leg.

And your dismissal of a panic button in the hands of a tactician is dismissing what a tactician does. To quote von Moltke, "Strategy is a system of expedients". In other words strategists should always be prepared to deal with the fact that "No plan survives contact with the enemy" (von Moltke again). Your claim that "The game is being built with the idea of non-panic-button gameplay in mind." contradicts my experiences and the presence of spike healing (and the idea that combat should be tense). Again, it's a demonstrable spherical cow.

Actually, looking at what it would take to have the utility of healing without actually restoring hit points, you need two things.

1: The Warlord needs to be able to utterly negate hits from weapons or damage from spells. And it needs to be able to do this reliably - not inflicting something like disadvantage to a to hit roll but actively flat out negating the hit or making the person hit save against the spell. They need to be able to say to incoming attacks "Nope. That did nothing." (Or, more likely in character "Cerrig! Duck!"). And they need to do it after the attack roll has been made/saving throw has been failed. (Which is in effect what healing does). This is because who needs healing can be seen after the event, so it comes with a spectacular advantage in knowing where to apply it.

2: They need to be able to say "Fight on. Or clear out." Providing a hit point buffer even if it only lasts for a few minutes to keep people functional when they would otherwise drop. And have genuinely effective out of combat mundane healing that can cover the gap.

But if point 1 - ability to negate an attack roll/saving throw that has already been made doesn't happen they are so far behind the functionality of the spike healers that you might as well not bother. Retroactive spike healing is just that much of an advantage - and not one any of your attempts have even started to come to grips with.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Why shouldn't they be? I've always held, for exemple that counting the arrows your character shoot so he/she can run out is silly when a spellcaster can't run out of spell components. So, if my concept is "this guy has gear that allows this effect", and that effect is already present in another class, but flavoured differently, why is that a problem?

I would agree that counting arrows without counting spell components is a problem. That's why DMs should have PCs account for both or neither.

A fighter is just some yokel with a piece of steel, why does he deserve narrative control when my Hogwarts alumni can rewrite reality to her whims?

His power may not be the same, it may even be a subset of the wizard's, but his status as a PC is equal. That's why he deserves narrative control as much as the Hogwarts alumnus does. Fortunately, that's not really difficult to accomplish and he doesn't need reality-warping abilities to do it. He just needs a DM who responds to him as if he's a protagonist.
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
(I get that it should be difficult to grapple a tank in a modern military game, but making a dragon fall on its scaly ass should be something an experienced character, be she a fighter or a wizard can reasonably do).

Is that really true? I expect that may be fairly contentious.

Polymorph, Knock, Tenser's transformation, Divine Power... I could go on naming spells or class features that completely trample the actual abilities of non-magical characters. Knock is really the poster child for this : it's a spell that renders an entire skill pointless. The rogue has to roll a check with a non-impossible chance that he might fail, but the wizard can just wave her fingers, no checks required, and open the door. But, you'll say, she can only do it once, maybe twice, before she runs out. That's when the rogue'll shine! Sure, I answer, but only if there are other locks in the dungeon or if the PCs don't rest before meeting another one. Same goes for fights : in this encounter, the cleric completely outpaced the fighter in efficiency, but surely she'll get a chance to be the hero in the next one.

It's good for a game to make playstyle assumptions, but it doesn't mean you get to not take into account the consequences of the pacing mechanics you included in games with non-standard pacing/games with players who understand the importance of spells/abilities/resources in successful encounters. The best part is, this also works with how HPs relate to the game.

I don't think any game system is going to be able to successfully wed all resource management with play styles, paces, and encounter types - not without severely restricting what it can do. At some point, you have to rely on the GM and table preferences to set the guidelines. And if this has ever been a problem, I would argue that it's because of a lack of recognition of that fundamental fact. RPGs are, at their fundamentals, tool kits for playing out the stories and adventures limited only by the imaginations of the participants. Any published set of rules (or tools) can only go so far, but hopefully they can lay enough groundwork that the GM can adjudicate situations in a reasonably predictable and consistent manner so that his players can make meaningful choices when playing.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
My case is D&D does include non-magical spike healing. All historical versions of D&D I am aware of have had this, and as far as I am aware all playtest packets of D&D Next have this. If you are designing a game from the ground up without spike healing then that's fine. I play a number of games without spike healing. And they work.

First, I'd ask what non-magical spike healing does every previous edition and the current edition of D&D have? As far as I am aware, the only spike healing to exist prior to 4e was explicitly magical, and even in 4e it was mostly magical with the exception of the Warlord and the Skald.

Second, if D&D Next includes non-magical spike healing already, then your case still seems to be that it is required to be a class feature, no?

And your posts so far have been utterly independent of D&D. As this is a thread about D&D and D&D Next in specific, most of your posts thus far have been the equivalent of starting off as a theoretical physicist by telling me to imagine a spherical_cow. Well, yes. I could start by imagining a spherical cow. But I've a four legged cud chewing manure maker right in front of me. And it is in no way spherical. So conversations that start off by assuming a spherical cow have very little to do with the actual process of getting milk.

All the things I've noted as possible ways to get at the effects you desire without a non-magical spike healing class feature are well within the scope of what I believe is possible and even likely in D&D NEXT. Saying "D&D Has Never Had This!" is no real evidence that 5e won't have it -- it's a new edition for a reason, after all.

You're veering into personal attack territory there.

Not my intent. To clarify: If there is only one possible correct solution in your mind, then the discussion can't be productive for me, because I disagree with the framework under which you're asking the question (ie: that there is one correct solution).

Except that as I have pointed out it is far, far the most efficient.

Again, if you are unable and/or unwilling to consider that it may not be essential, there's not much to talk about on that particular issue, because I don't accept a world in which there is only one true and necessary solution. If you believe in a world in which this is the case, trying to engage you is quixotic. You have the right answer, and should enjoy the games that answer this correctly for you.

If you are open to the possibility of non-magical spike healing as a class feature not being the one solution, the very first thing you need to be open to changing is that there are other ways to do the things that you want to do that 5e might try.
 

First, I'd ask what non-magical spike healing does every previous edition and the current edition of D&D have? As far as I am aware, the only spike healing to exist prior to 4e was explicitly magical, and even in 4e it was mostly magical with the exception of the Warlord and the Skald.

And what does that have to do with the price of oil in Nantucket market? The question is what will it take to make the Warlord. And the major metagame ability, as I have made clear right from the first post, is the ability to function without a spellcaster without significantly reduced efficiency.

All the things I've noted as possible ways to get at the effects you desire without a non-magical spike healing class feature are well within the scope of what I believe is possible and even likely in D&D NEXT. Saying "D&D Has Never Had This!" is no real evidence that 5e won't have it -- it's a new edition for a reason, after all.

We've been playing with D&D Next for more than a year now. And it's meant to be the edition to unite the editions.

Not my intent. To clarify: If there is only one possible correct solution in your mind, then the discussion can't be productive for me, because I disagree with the framework under which you're asking the question (ie: that there is one correct solution).

And I've provided a second one in the post you were replying to.

Again, if you are unable and/or unwilling to consider that it may not be essential,

Did you even read the post you are replying to? I provided another method by which the Warlord might work.

If you are open to the possibility of non-magical spike healing as a class feature not being the one solution, the very first thing you need to be open to changing is that there are other ways to do the things that you want to do that 5e might try.

Re-read the post you are replying to. I've provided a suggestion as to how you can provide the utility of spike healing to a party without providing spike healing itself.
 

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