Warrior vs. Wizard - Reality vs. the Hacker

[Black Knight Irios]

As I said in threads before (with similar topics) I would not mind if fighters somehow where able to bend reality somehow (or however you like to phrase it).

In the scenario you set up there are roughly three types of problems the fighter faces:

1) Ranged Attacks that deal damage: With 'Parry' he could turn some of that away using his CS dice defensively. Maybe there will be other similar or more powerful optoins later on like a reflect option or if you negate all damage the other effects are negated as well.

2) Magical Debuffs: This stuff is harder to negate/prevent and more often than not downright nasty. In 4E there were Utility Powers that could negate conditions, maybe there will be some mid-/ highlevel CS uses that enable that.

3) The wizard's self buffs: Literally anything from DR to Fly and Invis. The only way to get rid of that would be some kind of dispel-like ability or in the case of DR some ability to penetrate it somehow.
It appears that fighters won't be locked into a specific weapon any longer, therefore, a switch to a ranged weapon can negate some of the benefits of fly.

To solve some of those problems there could be backgrounds and specialties that support the idea of an mage/witch hunter that provide the necessary tools ruleswise.

The most stupid solution, IMO, would be a new christmas tree.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

First, I think the warlock is the "reality hacker." The wizard is more of a "reality programmer" with a steady 9-5 job at Microsoft or whatever.

Anyway, a lot of these are already possible in 5e, some even moreso than in previous editions:

Spoiler

Wizard casts Arcane Lock on a door. Fighter uses his innate strength to rip the door oof the hinges, shoulder charge it in or hacks in down with a single mighty blow.

Strength check.

Wizard casts Invisibility. The fighter squints, carefully scans the area and then whirls around, plunging his weapon into the surprised mage.

The wizard has the "invisible" status, which is the same as being "heavily obscured" for stealth purposes. So the wizard is making a Stealth check against the Fighter's Spot check. (If I were DM I'd give the wizard advantage.) If the fighter "spots" the wizard by hearing him, he can attack (with disadvantage).

Wizard casts Wind Wall. Unfazed, the fighter draws back his bowstring, observes the whirl of leaves and sand kicked up in the clashing gusts, and with a single exhale times his arrow shot so that the chaotic breezes guide the arrow to its mark.

No idea yet.

Wizard flies up and away. The fighter prepares a plunging shot with his bow or desperately hurls his weapon at the mage. The strike shatters the wizard's concentration, causing him to plunge back to the ground. (if the wizard moves out of weapon range, well, he ought to be out of spell range)

Heck, who needs to interrupt the wizard's concentration? A level 10 fighter apparently has 4d12 expertise dice. That's enough to one-shot the wizard.

The wizard drops a fiery inferno on the fighter. Suddenly, leaping from the flames the fighter barrels out of the fire, his armor barely darkened, with weapon upraised and a snarl on his lips.

Made his Dex save.

The wizard dominates the fighter, imposing his will on the hapless warrior. With a grunt and the shake of his shoulders, the fighter's will casts off the domination and the backlash drives the wizard to his knees. As the wizard gasps, a trickle of blood seeps from his nose...

Made his Wis (or Cha?) save. (The backlash is probably a bit much though.)

The wizard conjures a deadly illusion to distract the fighter. Without blinking, the fighter passes though the mirage, unwavering in his pursuit of the wizard.

Made his Wis (or Int?) save.

The wizard surrounds himself in enchantment, taking the form of a massive beast of evil. With a lightning fast strike, the fighter evades the tranforming mage's clumsy strike and smashes the wizard in his face. Reeling from the blow, the stunned wizard collapses back into his original form.

Wizard shapeshifts and attacks, can't beat fighter's AC + Parry. (And again, I don't think the wizard should be stunned or damaged or dispelled every time a spell or attack of his fails. The dude's already got so few HP a still breeze will blow him over.)

With a smirk, the wizard conjures a wall of impenterable force before him. His lopsided smile falters as the warrior hacks at the barrier, sending waves of coruscating force in all directions as the barrier thins....

We haven't seen Forcecage or whatever yet, but I'm guessing this one won't be possible.

The mage laughs as he teleports away. But as the hole in reality closes as the wizard departs, the fighter grasps at the mage, and forcibly hauls him back...

Only if the fighter has an action prepared.

 

[billd91]

Other ideas to give the fighter some teeth against the reality hacking of the wizard? Or even against the rigors of adventuring life that can't always be solved by whacking it over the head?

But does the fighter need some teeth against every method the wizard has to hack reality? I really don't think so. If he does, and they're always present and reliable, then the wizard would be the one we'd be talking about needing some kind of teeth against the fighter's moves.

 

[Ratskinner]

It seems to me that most things in the OP can be handled in two ways:

a) change the balance between saves and casters (maybe go back to the old-school method and get rid of DCs.) Many of the examples just sound like successful saves to me.

b) get rid of spell's abilities to impose such harsh binary conditions on targets. That is, instead of "deflects all normal missiles" spells provide "+X AC vs normal missiles". Eliminate "impenetrable force" structures and replace them with DCs to break.

 

[Stormonu]

But does the fighter need some teeth against every method the wizard has to hack reality? I really don't think so. If he does, and they're always present and reliable, then the wizard would be the one we'd be talking about needing some kind of teeth against the fighter's moves.

I think there should be in mind some way to counter, whether it's a save or something stronger. "I win" or "I win almost all the time" are things I hate to see in a game; I like to see folks having to adjust their strategy to fit an obstacle, instead of falling into a Standard Operating Procedure mode - whether it's the ubiquitous 10' pole prod for traps every 5 feet, fly-invisible-zap or scry-buff-teleport tropes. Should the fighter have all the counters all the time? Obviously no, that's as bad as the wizard having the same thing.

 

[Ellington]

If nothing else, I like the idea of characters with the Fly spell having to concentrate to keep aloft.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Seriously, if I'm the wizard and I cast Invisibility and the fighter strikes me unerringly, I call BS. What does "Invisibility" mean if your opponents can effectively see you?

It means they can hear you or smell you.

 

[Stormonu]

First, I think the warlock is the "reality hacker." The wizard is more of a "reality programmer" with a steady 9-5 job at Microsoft or whatever.

Anyway, a lot of these are already possible in 5e, some even moreso than in previous editions:




Strength check.



The wizard has the "invisible" status, which is the same as being "heavily obscured" for stealth purposes. So the wizard is making a Stealth check against the Fighter's Spot check. (If I were DM I'd give the wizard advantage.) If the fighter "spots" the wizard by hearing him, he can attack (with disadvantage).



No idea yet.



Heck, who needs to interrupt the wizard's concentration? A level 10 fighter apparently has 4d12 expertise dice. That's enough to one-shot the wizard.



Made his Dex save.



Made his Wis (or Cha?) save. (The backlash is probably a bit much though.)



Made his Wis (or Int?) save.



Wizard shapeshifts and attacks, can't beat fighter's AC + Parry. (And again, I don't think the wizard should be stunned or damaged or dispelled every time a spell or attack of his fails. The dude's already got so few HP a still breeze will blow him over.)



We haven't seen Forcecage or whatever yet, but I'm guessing this one won't be possible.



Only if the fighter has an action prepared.

Yeah, some of these already exist in a basic fashion, and that's good. Though, 3E had the problem that the wizard could jack the saves so high, you didn't have a prayer of resisting unless you specifically built your character to counter it. I think certain 4E orb wizards had some similar issues. If we can avoid one side or the other making it just impossible to resist a spell, we're halfway there. Th other half is just making sure there is a way to avoid, mitigate or counter a strategy either passively - or should one choose - actively.

Just a note on two of my earlier "tales"

- the fireball; making a save or "uncanny dodge" is already in existance, but what about actually moving out of the area of effect - perhaps using it as a momentum or cover for a charge?

- domination; not only a save, but what about a backlash? Again, I'm horrible at mechanics, but what if the fighter could spend a CS die to force the wizard to make the same save or take damage if the fighter makes his initial save, or an ability/feat that on a critical save (nat 20), the caster takes backlash? I believe psychic hole (or was it hostile mind?) in 3E did something like this on the psionics side.

-disruption; for the polymorph, the wizzie just made a bad attack roll The main point was (at least temporarily) knocking the wizard back to his normal form long enough to make 'im dead. This type of disruption might be something that disrupts the spell effect perhaps for a round; in the flying case, the wizard might just fly back up into the air, but the fighter may just have grounded him long enough for an ally to stick him with a shiv or throw a net over him. For polymorph, perhaps the wizard shakes off the blow and becomes the raging beast once again - after the fighter or an ally tries to put the pointy end of his blade through the wizzy's gut.

Again, I'm just spitballing, and the idea is more along the lines, how to keep spells/obstacles from being unbeatable without having to resort by countering it with another spell or magic items?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Imagine if you will - ignoring all other classes - a fighter and a wizard standing apart from each other on the field of battle. The wizard, described as a reality hacker, facing off against his nemesis, reality incarnate. Where the wizard tells the laws of physics to go in a corner and shut up, the fighter bitch slaps some sense in them and sends them back into the fray - makes them work to his advantage.

With this premise in mind, what quasi-mundane abilities would the fighter need to counter/negate the a variety of the wizard's spells to keep them viable. And while, "disrupt his spell" is certainly one option, I don't want it as the default; assume the wizard's got it off.

One image I always liked, from the 1e AD&D DMG, was that a fighter's save vs spells could represent "sheer defiance."

With the above conceptualization of magic, simply being strongly-grounded in reality might well be enough for a determined, strong-willed non-caster to simply stop a magical effect dead in it's tracks. Probably only so far as that character's 'personal space.' So, while an archanist or paladin with a holy sword might dispel a wall of fire, the fighter might walk through it and come out with nothing more than a singed cloak, because the magic of the fire just isn't 'real' /enough/ to burn him.

Though, like spell disruption, that's perhaps a more facile general default than you're looking for.

 

[Stormonu]

One image I always liked, from the 1e AD&D DMG, was that a fighter's save vs spells could represent "sheer defiance."

With the above conceptualization of magic, simply being strongly-grounded in reality might well be enough for a determined, strong-willed non-caster to simply stop a magical effect dead in it's tracks. Probably only so far as that character's 'personal space.' So, while an archanist or paladin with a holy sword might dispel a wall of fire, the fighter might walk through it and come out with nothing more than a singed cloak, because the magic of the fire just isn't 'real' /enough/ to burn him.

Though, like spell disruption, that's perhaps a more facile general default than you're looking for.

Yeah, that was one thing I was trying to insinuate. The wizard may have all these other rubes fooled into thinking he can do all this "trickery" - summon up fire out of nothing, make a creature from your nightmares, float away like a ballon on the wind. It works on others because they believe it does.

But the fighter "knows" its just all smoke and mirrors and it just doesn't work on him because he knows its all "fake".

Its a way of looking at D&D magic that D&D has never supported; magic only works because you don't realize it shouldn't.