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Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

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pemerton

Legend
At around 20 Aragorn is told his ancestry and meets Arwen and is smitten by her. Over the 20 years or so he becomes a victorious Captain in both Rohan and Gondor. While in Lorien he then meets Arwen again. The fall in love and pledge themselves to one another. Elrond finds out and the next time he sees Aragorn tells him that the only Man (mortal) he will allow his daughter to marry is the king of the west.

I don't see anywhere that Aragorn wanted nothing to do with his parentage. If anything we is completely committing to becoming the King of the west if only to marry his love.

However, he seems to also be aware that victory over Sauron will not come through strength of arms. He does not have Narsil reforged into Anduril until the One ring is found. Did he come by this knowledge from his own time fighting against the forces of the enemy? From his close counsel with Gandalf? Both? We don't know for sure.

I find the character very compelling for many reasons, in no small part due to his doubts about himself, but nowhere do I see a rejection of his ancestry.
I'm not sure what your measure is for "rejecting his ancestry". I mean, clearly he never literally rejects his ancestry in either book or film - but he has doubts in both.

In the film, he doubts "the strength of men" and worries about whether he is up to the task of defeating Sauron and reclaiming his throne. It is Arwen who assures him that he is "not Isildur", and will be able to prevail.

In Appendix A, when he first tells Arwen who he is, "he felt that his high lineage, in which his heart had rejoiced, was now of little worth, and as nothing compared to her dignity and loveliness. . . . [and] Aragorn was abashed, for he saw the elven-light in her eyes and the wisdom of many days . . ." (The quotes are from pp 1095-96 of my Unwin one-volume edition.)

Later, in conversation with Elrond, the latter says that "she is of lineage greater than yours . . . She is too far above you." (p 1096) Elrond also tells Aragorn that "A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of al your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with what is left of your kin." (p 1096). Aragorn does not dispute this, but rather "[takes] leave lovingly of Elrond" before setting out on nearly thirty years of errantry, and we are told that "His face was sad and stern because of the doom that was laid on him". (p 1097)

When he meets Arwen again, she tells him that "Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it"; but he replies with doubt, saying that "I cannot foresee it, and how it may come to pass is hidden from me. Yet with your hope I will hope." (p 1098)

Again, we see that Aragorn takes hope and assurance from Arwen, which assuages the doubts and doom that he feels within himself. He wants to be king, of course, and thereby realise his destiny and marry his beloved. But he has doubts that he will be able to do what is required.

In the film, we see Aragorn struggle more with the consequences for Arwen of their betrothal, but then we see more of their interactions full stop. But in Appendix A, when Aragorn is dying, he offers Arwen the opportunity of repentance - so even in that respect, the film is not wildly at odds with the book in trying to convey the consequences for Arwen of her choice, and the significance to Aragorn of that consequence.

In the book, it seems to me that the truly pivotal scene in which Aragorn's doubts (well-expressed in his lamenting that "An ill fate is one me this day, and all that I do goes amiss" (p 433)) are dispelled, and his confidence rises to match Arwen's hope, is his wresting of the Palantir from Sauron's control. This is where we see him transcend any need for advice from Gandalf, and assert his kinghood: "I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely." (p 811) In the films I don't think the trajectory is wildly different, although the delivery of Anduril rather than the use of the Palantir serves as the pivotal event.
 

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THAT is a really good point. in battling the Wargs in Hobbit, he cast numerous fireballs and I might argue that it was the Meteor Swarm spell (9th) instead.

It's more like the old Fire Seeds druid spell... so much so that I think the spell was based on that specific scene. But I don't think that spell made it into 5th edition (it's at least not in the Player's Handbook).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm

Meteor Swarm is way too powerful... four 40-ft.-radius blasts would have killed most of the goblins and scared away those that survived.

In 5th Edition, it's more like a series of Firebolt cantrips, really. It doesn't seem to be a large blast effect like Fireball.
 

tglassy

Adventurer
Gandalf was also a great fighter, so he likely had a good number of Fighter Spells as well. He was also a story teller, entertainer and lore master, so a few levels of Bard probably would be in there, as well. So even if he was only a 5th level wizard, he was likely at least a 5th level fighter and perhaps a 5th level bard. You could likely add in five levels of Paladin, just cause, and still be on the mark.

So there you go. A level 20 character, just not all of them 'wizard', which would make since if he lived 2,000 years. Muticlassed characters are more fleshed out anyway. Who would want to have the same job for 2,000 years?
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Gandalf was also a great fighter, so he likely had a good number of Fighter Spells as well. He was also a story teller, entertainer and lore master, so a few levels of Bard probably would be in there, as well. So even if he was only a 5th level wizard, he was likely at least a 5th level fighter and perhaps a 5th level bard. You could likely add in five levels of Paladin, just cause, and still be on the mark.

So there you go. A level 20 character, just not all of them 'wizard', which would make since if he lived 2,000 years. Muticlassed characters are more fleshed out anyway. Who would want to have the same job for 2,000 years?

Sorry, but no. Gandalf is a favored soul(sorcerer), he spent his feats on skills, lore and the sword.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sorry, but no. Gandalf is a favored soul(sorcerer), he spent his feats on skills, lore and the sword.
Also no. I've read the books and he is a Wizard. Nowhere does it say Favored Soul anywhere in any of the books. Further, in the books he states that he learned spells of all the races, something a D&D sorcerer could not do.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (he/him)
I think the class that best fits Gandalf is Bard because his main function is to inspire others to deeds of bravery. Also, as an Ainu, he is one of the beings who created the original vision of the world through music, which seems Bard-like to me.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
A 'wizard' in Tolkien was a walking/talking plot device and source of exposition, not a character, let alone a class.
 
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Caliburn101

Explorer
Gandalf the Grey = 5th level Wizard/5th level Fighter/5th level Cleric of Light - all in a world where third level spells are the most powerful available and healing is skill and feat-based... then he goes to 6th level in each when he becomes Gandalf the White.
 


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