D&D 5E We Would Hate A BG3 Campaign

[Doc_Klueless]

Yeah, I did notice how the DM's dictatorship suddenly got framed as something 'everyone else' agreed to in order to position the person who wants agency as the bad guy going against the group.

Wow. I didn't suddenly frame anything as anything. I just put forth a scenario and ran with it. I said that I run a premade campaign setting. That campaign setting has certain restrictions. Those restrictions were agreed to and then a player showed up at the table to state he wanted something different. Ya know, the scenario that's haunted the many pages before my post.

But... since apparently anything I say will be taken negatively, I'll just go cry into my campaign notes for the upcoming adventure this weekend with my four players who are apparently playing against their will and with characters they would rather not play.

So many tears on both sides of the screen. We may need floaties.

And if one player's agency is going against the group's wishes and they won't back down, they are the bad guy.

 

[Zardnaar]

I mean, both hard requirements, but one is "Hey, this game has supported this particular option in every edition except 4E, its not considered overpowered, I would like to play it", and the other is "This realm is solid enough that this re-occurring Dungeons and Dragons monster type cannot and can never exist here", when even orcs have occaisonally crept into Dragonlance once or twice

Catfolk have existed in one form or another since Isle of Dread and they were just people back then. They've been in the game longer than I've been alive. They're hardly core, but if something's been in the game over 40 years, I think its worth raising a few eyebrows at it being left out

There's a difference between being in game and veing allowed to play one.

Sone races are NPC only. For whatever reason DM sees fit.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

LOL, when I've opened up seats for new players I'm turning people away. Getting players is the least of my concerns.

This. Even with my so-called unpalatable restrictions, I keep having a full table (though more of a VTT now than physical) and very, very few player's quit until the campaign is done. I'm starting to think I might be running a good game after all.

 

[Mecheon]

There's a difference between being in game and veing allowed to play one.

Sone races are NPC only. For whatever reason DM sees fit.

D&D's got a massive history of making formerly NPC races playable. Complete Book of Humanoids, after all, and Drow themselves have been promoted straight into the PHB these days

Also like, one of the D&D MMOs even put 'em in. Which is surprising because it was the older one, not Neverwinter, and... Well, they're just filling the Rakasta role in Isle of Dread. But interesting to see they've turned up there

Warcraft is an aberration caused by being a videogame. In the typical D&D setting there aren't that many druids and the ones that there are don't typically hang around cities, and when they do go to a city, they aren't going to be a dangerous predator that townsfolk will kill.

But sure, if a setting was like WoW and there were tons of epic and legendary items, races of freaky appearance, and druids all over in various forms, that would be an exception to what I am saying.

I know people 'love' it, but given D&D's worn its influence on its sleeve in its past I bet we'll see a smidgen more of a Warcraft influence going forward if only due to how much of a behemoth that was in its heyday

This is why I said common to a setting. In a place near where the Saurial live, dinosaur people might not be unusual or feared. Two countries over the vast majority of people would never even have heard of them, let alone seen one. Two different local settings withing the FR setting. Same with lizard men. They aren't going to be common as trading partners in most places, or even seen in many places.

Those races that are accepted locally very likely at one point weren't and were feared or even killed. Aaaand, just because a village is okay with the local lizard men, doesn't mean that a dragon person who spits acid isn't going to be feared as a monster. For every humanoid race that is accepted, there are like 50 monsters that will kill you, many of which look similar to a friendly race. The unique dragon born in a setting where dragon born don't exist will likely end up dead right quick or be a disruption to the game for a long, long time.

It may be a view by view but if someone's peacefully approaching a town, I can't really see them being that aggressive right off the bat. Guards may keep an eye on them, but news travels. If the dragon guy turns up to town and is being peacful, do you really go and try to kill him for just trying to walk into town and risk an actual dragon making a stop on the town in retaliation? Or worse, an army rolling up because he was someone important of a foreign country?

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
This thread has generated a half-dozen reports this weekend.

Folks probably want to consider whether they want to be the one to say the thing that makes the moderators go, "For cryin' out loud, that thread again?"

Please think about what you're about to say, and whether someone is going to report it, and what is apt to happen if they do...

 

[Warpiglet-7]

As a general thing, is there any player option that is ok to take off the table?

It could be the DM wants to create a certain flavor or general feel. It may even be that the DM making errors in assumptions about history during his efforts. But no matter.

Whatever the reason, is there ever a limitation on player class or race that is “acceptable?” And by that I don’t mean your preference ina particular instance. I mean Is it ever “ok?” Race, class feat, subclass…can I limit any of them without being the “bad guy?”

I think however you answer that question is fine for you and your game. I also think it really explains this whole thread.

If the answer is “no” the DM is never justified in limiting these things, it’s ok but not exactly the common baseline. Some folks are suggesting shock that the DM would ever decide what to include or exclude in a campaign.

The old AD&D dmg would surely suggest the DM has a lot of say so. The 5th edition DMG likewise suggests that the DM is deciding about which gods are present and what tone the campaign should take.

I have always assumed the DM and players have different roles. Liberal inclusion works for me when it’s my time to DM. My pal is a bit more restrictive. I don’t think one of us is “right.”

I just can’t find a reason to be surprised by a DM having some limitations/parameters. In any published book do we have any recommendation for the DM to abdicate that decision making process?

I see a lot of “consult with the DM” in the most tenuous places. Why consult if I know what I want? It’s almost like the DM is a stopper sometimes.

In less gentle sections of previous D&D books, the DM is final arbiter, master of worlds, etc.

You certainly don’t have to play it that way and surely can design a campaign by committee. No judgment. I might like to participate in that!

But acting “shocked” that a DM would shape a world with limitations is hard for me to grasp. Not liking particular ones? Sure. Not liking a particular DM? Understandable. But actually thinking it’s aberrant that a DM would have players select from a smaller group of options?

Your experience is likely a bit uncommon

It’s ok—-but I do believe having limits for a campaign can matter and not be just an excuse for—whatever.

 

[cbwjm]

Even WotC limits races by campaign setting, they might have an "ask your DM" side bar but they still do it. Ravnica and Theros has a curated list, I vaguely recall that the PHB had common and uncommon races with an "ask your dm" for the uncommon races, though I'd have to reread my PHB to confirm.

I should note, I've (thankfully) never had any player complain that X race wasn't available in a game I was running, they typically just selected from the races I did allow and fit them into the setting. I wouldn't be surprised if most players are willing to accept race/class restrictions. I also wouldn't be surprised that if a DM pitches a campaign with specific race/class restrictions to their players and they don't get much interest that they wouldn't consider another campaign setting to run. I know from my own experience that I have a few different PC ideas I can run, and I normally have a few ideas for campaigns. I can't be the only one.

 

[Older Beholder]

I like to be as accommodating as possible when I run a campaign.
Problems tend to be more about the player than the player options anyway, I find.

Example: last game I ran I told the players beforehand that I might want to do an adventure in a dream realm at some point so could they not choose 'immune to sleep' type creatures.

player one: elf
player two: warforged
player three: minotaur

So, 2 out 3 characters immune to sleep, now, the elf player almost always picks elf, the war-forged player has always wanted to play a warforged. Easy enough to just handwave it and say the sleep works anyway, I told the players that and they were fine with it.

The player that chose the Minotaur wanted it to have a split personality based on some sort of space madness where he was a Paladin, but each morning rolled a d6 and on a 1 he would switch personality and become a mad sorcerer until he rolled another 1 to change back (which feels like someone just trying to be as disruptive as possible).

I told him he could have that as a backstory but would start the game with his madness being cured in the opening scene. I did have a plan to reintroduce the madness later in a way that made sense mechanically, but he said he'd rather not bother if it was going to be cured.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's not badwrongfun. It's not rightfun for me. Being limited to the same monsters all the time would be booooring to me as both a player and a DM.

So you're contending that Dark Sun was created as a power play vs. the players of D&D, and not a creator's artistic vision of a cool and different setting?

I'm saying that DS was created as an instance of a certain genre outside the classic genre which D&D was designed to support. I remember when it came out, it required some moderately significant rules hacks to make it work!

So, I don't have much interest in whether it is an 'artistic vision' or not, it was a game design choice/exercise. It still won't be spoiled simply by adding in a few Dragonborn. In fact 4e DS did EXACTLY THAT and I am not aware of any ill effect whatsoever. Heck, you can play eledrin, tieflings, etc. in 4e DS! No biggie...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

D&D's got a massive history of making formerly NPC races playable. Complete Book of Humanoids, after all, and Drow themselves have been promoted straight into the PHB these days

Also like, one of the D&D MMOs even put 'em in. Which is surprising because it was the older one, not Neverwinter, and... Well, they're just filling the Rakasta role in Isle of Dread. But interesting to see they've turned up there


I know people 'love' it, but given D&D's worn its influence on its sleeve in its past I bet we'll see a smidgen more of a Warcraft influence going forward if only due to how much of a behemoth that was in its heyday


It may be a view by view but if someone's peacefully approaching a town, I can't really see them being that aggressive right off the bat. Guards may keep an eye on them, but news travels. If the dragon guy turns up to town and is being peacful, do you really go and try to kill him for just trying to walk into town and risk an actual dragon making a stop on the town in retaliation? Or worse, an army rolling up because he was someone important of a foreign country?

Exactly, every race aside from, 4 got invented at some point, and three of those four the rules were designed originally to discourage. Yet it is well-known that DA and EGG both allowed pretty much any race to be created and run in their games. They weren't interested in 'setting logic', they were perhaps interested in balance, to a degree. So the guy who played a dragon had to start as a BABY dragon, and the guy who played the Vampire... Well, Dave invented the cleric so they could deal with him!

I'd venture that all these restrictions are not in the spirit of the original game at all.