D&D 5E Weighing in on 5e

[delericho]

The current way of describing stats IS harmful to the game. I DM for a bunch of new players, and while, "Your modifier is your stat minus ten halved rounded down" might seem harmless nostalgia to you, it makes no sense to them at all.

This sacred cow needs to die. I'm not saying it's a huge deal, it's just that getting rid of needless complexity is very worthwhile if you want to attract new players to the game.

Whenever I introduce a new player to the game, the point-buy system makes their eyes cross. Rolling 4d6-drop-lowest is vastly preferable to point buy for new players.

The game should return to a point where that is a valid means of generating characters, and should retain ability scores and not just the modifiers.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Personally I think stats shoudl continue to be as they are.
The main reason I think this is twofold.
1) While defining all stats from an arbitrary average is fine, it still feels wrong to say the average human has zero constitution (str, dex, int, wis or cha). An average person still has some level of strength or some such and to say it is zero feel silly.
2) You lose the idea of Zero as a lower cap to a stat. This is relevent to spells that may reduce stats (which have existed in a lot of editions of D&D so far) and it gives you an understanding on what is too low to be viable. This idea of Int 0 (mod -5) = no mind at all for example halps place an idiot on the scale from "No Mind" through "Average" to "Genius". Now you can go with the idea that a -5 mod is the absolute lower limit (as that is currently the mod at Stat 0) but it feels arbitrary and disjointed, while saying well "You can't have a negative strength can you?" makes sense.

Having a stat value and a mod lets you put these simple facts into their real world version while being able to easily define relative compotence:
1) Zero is the obvious and practical lower limit to a stat, and you can give a logical reason why this will be.
2) A zero in a stat mod simply defines the average person's ability at some thing, so the maths gives a modification of probability from the norm. i.e. An average man can perform this "feat of strength" 50% of the time, and your stat mod gives a direct indication of the change in probability for you to do the same feat.
3) Having an obvious lower limit makes it easier to trigger effects or conditions based on this limit without it being a jarring effect when observed by players. "My Int has been reduced to zero! Coma time." vs "So my Int is -5 now, what's the big deal? It was always shoddy and it didn't stop me kicking butt before."

Interesting point, but of course the game could simply shift the math around such that +0 is terrible and represents 'mindless' etc and +10 is the highest starting bonus. The average bonus would then be +5. In fact this might be the most straightforward sort of implementation. Base AC starting at say 17 would mean a guy with a s+10 would hit on a 7, and a guy with a +5 (equivalent to a primary ability score of 10) would hit on a 12. Kind of works pretty well. The actual base AC/DEF number would depend on what other basic bonuses existed of course, but the math would generally be very similar to 4e.

In other words there's no real mechanical argument for 3-18 stats. They can't be used directly as modifiers because the range is too great for a d20. Truly old fashioned stats really ARE pretty much a holdover feature from a design sense. They are just a VERY classic one that is far more sacred than the rest of the cows. I suspect you could change every other aspect of the game except ability scores, AC, and hit points, and people will still see the game as 'D&D' in some measure. I'm just going to have to guess that those 3 things are simply untouchable.

 

[KarinsDad]

The current way of describing stats IS harmful to the game. I DM for a bunch of new players, and while, "Your modifier is your stat minus ten halved rounded down" might seem harmless nostalgia to you, it makes no sense to them at all.

This sacred cow needs to die. I'm not saying it's a huge deal, it's just that getting rid of needless complexity is very worthwhile if you want to attract new players to the game.

Have your new players roll 4D6 drop the lowest and get rid of point buy and they'll understand a lot better.

Also, your point about "but you would end up with half modifiers" is a bit of a moot point, as we're talking a new edition here. How about you get +1 modifier to two stats every EIGHT levels instead of +1 to the stat every four? Problem solved, and I'm not even a game designer, who would doubtless spend more time on the problem and come up with a more elegant solution.

Except that this solution takes away some of the design ability of players who like to min max (a legitimate form of creating a PC, regardless of the bad press it gets). I have players whose PC's primary stat goes up by 1 every 4 levels, but who go from other stat to other stat, making certain odd stats even or making certain even stats purposely odd at level 8 so that they can become even at level 11, etc. I know of players who put a 17 or 19 in their primary stat, realizing that it will be even at level 4.

So your attempt at being a game designer and dumbing down the game would take away a PC design element that some players enjoy.

 

[Gort]

Whenever I introduce a new player to the game, the point-buy system makes their eyes cross. Rolling 4d6-drop-lowest is vastly preferable to point buy for new players.

The game should return to a point where that is a valid means of generating characters, and should retain ability scores and not just the modifiers.

I don't use point buy. I use standard array. So easy, quick, and balanced.

I disagree with your assumption that rolling dice to determine your stats was EVER a valid means of generating characters. Heck, my group were house-ruling that out back in second ed!

Generating ability scores with dice is atrocious. "Oh-ho-ho! You rolled some bad numbers, now your character is screwed forever!" just leads to people getting their low-stat characters killed so they can re-roll, or the countless "Oh, you rolled a negative modifier so you get a free re-roll" or "If you don't like your stats you can re-roll" and a thousand other ways to try and get around the basic and obvious fact that playing the character in the party who has terrible stats isn't much fun, and randomly generating your stats is a great way to have to play that character.

In my opinion, rolling for stats should stay dead and buried along with stuff like rolling for hitpoints. Nothing quite like being the fighter with 42 HP because you kept rolling low each time you levelled up.

 

[delericho]

I don't use point buy. I use standard array. So easy, quick, and balanced.

And all the characters are the same. Good idea!

I disagree with your assumption that rolling dice to determine your stats was EVER a valid means of generating characters.

Worked okay for us.

Generating ability scores with dice is atrocious. "Oh-ho-ho! You rolled some bad numbers, now your character is screwed forever!" just leads to people getting their low-stat characters killed so they can re-roll, or the countless "Oh, you rolled a negative modifier so you get a free re-roll" or "If you don't like your stats you can re-roll" and a thousand other ways to try and get around the basic and obvious fact that playing the character in the party who has terrible stats isn't much fun, and randomly generating your stats is a great way to have to play that character.

Did you not notice the bit where I noted it was better for new players? That cuts out pretty much all the stuff you've just cited, especially where the system builds in the reroll stuff, as did 3e.

In my opinion, rolling for stats should stay dead and buried along with stuff like rolling for hitpoints.

However, I'm definitely with you on rolling hit points.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't use point buy. I use standard array. So easy, quick, and balanced.

Easy, quick, balanced, and boring. Many PCs of the same class have virtually identical stats. zzzzzzz

I'd never use standard array, but I wouldn't stop anyone else from using it if they wanted.

I disagree with your assumption that rolling dice to determine your stats was EVER a valid means of generating characters. Heck, my group were house-ruling that out back in second ed!

It was always a legal method in the rules and people used it. By definition, that makes it as valid as any other legal method in the rules.

Generating ability scores with dice is atrocious. "Oh-ho-ho! You rolled some bad numbers, now your character is screwed forever!" just leads to people getting their low-stat characters killed so they can re-roll, or the countless "Oh, you rolled a negative modifier so you get a free re-roll" or "If you don't like your stats you can re-roll" and a thousand other ways to try and get around the basic and obvious fact that playing the character in the party who has terrible stats isn't much fun, and randomly generating your stats is a great way to have to play that character.

In my opinion, rolling for stats should stay dead and buried along with stuff like rolling for hitpoints. Nothing quite like being the fighter with 42 HP because you kept rolling low each time you levelled up.

It all depends on the type of people playing the game. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it doesn't work for other people.

For every time that most players roll terrible on the ability score dice, they also roll great. There's a certain thrill to rolling awesome on the dice and even when the dice rolls are bad, DMs often have house rules that the player is allowed to do it a second or third time. Or a house rule that the player can trade lousy rolls for point buy or standard array.

Think outside of the box. That's what the WotC designers should do. There is a large audience of players out there and WotC should not come up with designs that are solely focused on small segments of players that think in a certain narrow and uncompromising way.

 

[drothgery]

Easy, quick, balanced, and boring. Many PCs of the same class have virtually identical stats. zzzzzzz

How often do PCs of the same race (or races with identical stat modifiers) and class show up in the same game?

 

[Kzach]

It only needs to die if you care only for stream-lining the system, ignoring the biases of current customers who are not wholly rational people.

Hah! Never a truer sentence was spoken!

The thing is, though, catering to irrational customers is never a good business strategy since you'll never be able to please them... they're irrational, after all.

So why not abandon them and their inane whimsy? It's not like they're making you money since they'll cancel subscriptions and blockade your product over idiotic little things like whether the system uses an archaic 3-18 ability score system or not.

The fact is that the old guard are dying off. Encounters and Lair Assault are, IMO, quite obviously aimed at a younger audience and from what I've seen of Encounters nights at stores, they're dominated by the 16 to 25 crowd. This is the new generation of gamers who are embracing PNP and who are coming from Warhammer, Magic the Gathering and World of Warcraft.

Like it or not, that's where the game is heading. Personally, I'm excited to see where it goes and don't give a fig about the whims of people who place importance on irrelevant, out-dated mechanics like 3-18 stat spreads.

 

[LordPsychodin]

For all this talk about the 3-18 spread, it is kinda silly to support a mechanic that has probably never been playtested nor balanced across all of dungeons and dragons until 4th edition, in which it took a turn where almost every other good tabletop RPG has already gone.

There is NOTHING lost nor gained by random rolling other than at least: satisfying some broken gamer syndrome wistfulness for dated mechanics, which is something no company should do.

Honestly, I just give out an 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10 for any edition D&D game these days just because of all the drama I've gotten not only over rolling, but method of rolling and exact point buy. Haven't had a complaint since, it even makes starting games easier because they don't even need to ask me how I determine stats anymore and they don't need a roll witness either which means I can set a date for a game and get 4 fully finished characters from players with no worry of needing a session just for character creation.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hah! Never a truer sentence was spoken!

The thing is, though, catering to irrational customers is never a good business strategy since you'll never be able to please them... they're irrational, after all.

So why not abandon them and their inane whimsy? It's not like they're making you money since they'll cancel subscriptions and blockade your product over idiotic little things like whether the system uses an archaic 3-18 ability score system or not.

The fact is that the old guard are dying off. Encounters and Lair Assault are, IMO, quite obviously aimed at a younger audience and from what I've seen of Encounters nights at stores, they're dominated by the 16 to 25 crowd. This is the new generation of gamers who are embracing PNP and who are coming from Warhammer, Magic the Gathering and World of Warcraft.

Like it or not, that's where the game is heading. Personally, I'm excited to see where it goes and don't give a fig about the whims of people who place importance on irrelevant, out-dated mechanics like 3-18 stat spreads.

Funny, I'd have thought business sense had a heck of a lot more to do with giving your customers what they want so they want to pay for it. Last I checked all the 'irrational people' had money that was the same color as yours. Funny thing about that too, all those people, they're the ones that are still playing after 30-some years. Us older people also have money to spend on things, unlike all you young sprouts that owe 100k in student loans Nor, I hate to break it to you, are most of us anywhere even close to croaking.

Nor do we give a fig about those who want to mutate our game into something else. Come up with your game, and get off my lawn you punk!

More seriously, it may be irrational, but you'll find you're going to become just as irrationally attached to the things you like. Since ability scores are so trivial that they can be eliminated they're trivial enough not to worry about, eh? Is it even worth as much effort as it has taken us to post back and forth a couple times? I doubt it.