D&D 5E What are your experiences playing paladins/rangers?

[Gladius Legis]

I am not sure why you "don't hear about two weapon fighting paladins" but my impression is that the off hand is often needed holding/focusing on your holy symbol and/or healing in combat. If you put the holy symbol on your shield, you could at least have a benefit to AC that way.

You don't need to hold a holy symbol. Wear it around your neck if you don't have a shield.

You need a free hand to perform somatic components, but if you need to do that, just stow away your off-hand weapon that round and cast, since it's not like you're attacking with your off-hand that round anyway. Then draw your off-hand weapon again next round.

 

[Gladius Legis]

As for lack of TWF style on dual-wielding Paladins ... meh. Even in the early levels, it's not that big of a deal, and at Lv. 11 Improved Divine Smite makes up pretty much entirely for it anyway. Even sooner if you're an Oathbreaker (Lv. 7, Aura of Hate).

Regardless of TWF style or not, the Paladin is probably one of only two classes (Rogue being the other) for whom dual-wielding is worth it after Lv. 5. One more chance to apply Divine Smite every round can be a very good thing. It's also one more chance to *crit* every round so you can double Divine Smite's damage (very good with Vengeance's advantage in particular).

 

[Gladius Legis]

Hunter's Mark gets you more mileage out of both the spell slot and the bonus action than simply making a third smite in the round would.

Not necessarily. I did the math on this.

Assuming 65% hit chance, Hunter's Mark (3.5 damage per hit) vs. 1st-level Divine Smite (9 damage, used when you confirm a hit/crit):

9/(.65*3.5) = 3.96. So basically you have to attack 4 times on average before you can fully expect Hunter's Mark to surpass one 1st-level Divine Smite in damage contribution. Also consider that dealing damage early in the battle is typically better than spreading it out over time.

A lot can also happen over the time you get to make 4 attacks. You could lose concentration on HM, for example. Or the enemy you HM-ed could get killed by an ally shortly after and you have to use another bonus action in a future round to mark a different one.

Also, while you can use a holy symbol on your shield as a spellcasting focus, you can't do that while wielding two weapons unless you take a feat for it.

Again, you can wear a holy symbol around your neck. Then stow your off-hand weapon if you need to perform a somatic component that round, since you're not attacking with your off-hand anyway. Then draw your off-hand weapon again next round.

 

[TwoSix]

If you normally play full casters, what challenges did you encounter changing your playstyle to a less magic-heavy build?

I look to melee/ranged attack first, and cast spells as a last resort. The rangers I've played with tend to use their spells more situationally, but playing a paladin you think long and hard about casting any spell that could have been a crit-smite instead.

In practice, do divine smite and spell economy conflict?

Absolutely. You have some big booms you can sacrifice for some utility if needed, not the other way around. It's something you always have to think about.

Why don't we hear more about two weapon fighting paladins? (Improved divine smite + bonus action attack via TWF sounds like a good deal. )

Because DW mostly stinks outside of some specific builds that work hard to maximize it. Plus paladins don't get it without dipping. Plus great weapon master.

Is Magic Initiate (feat) to get Shillelagh worth it for paladin?

No. Why? You're a Charisma/Strength class, not Wisdom.

Can either class' spellcasting array allow them to be a reliable party healer?

Not by itself, but LoH is a workhorse.

 

[WhosAChaoticGoodBoy]

Thanks for the solid input folks! I think I see your points. Adding this is how I break it down now:

(EDIT: the following assumes lvl 11 paladin with Improved Divine Smite)

Two-handed Pali (two greatsword attacks)
4d6 + 2d8 + 6 = 12,46

Two weapon Pali (two handaxe attacks)
2d6 + 2d8 + 6 = 10,34

Two weapon Pali (two handaxe attacks, one handaxe TWF attack)
3d6 + 3d8 + 6 = 12,48 (NO bonus action)

and even with the Dual Wielder feat...

Two weapon Pali (two longsword attacks, one longsword TWF attack)
6d8+ 6 = 12,54 (NO bonus action)

At first I thought TWF > Spellsmite effects because TWF does extra damage without requiring a spellslot, but now I see it doesn't give you that much compared to a two-handed weapon with your bonus action open

Meanwhile, Shillelagh via Magic Initiate using WIS instead of CHA is a good catch.

Filing this under "Stop trying to make TWF competitive, it's not going to be competitive" hehe

 

[manduck]

As others have said, paladin's are not considered casters even thought they have magic. My experience playing a paladin is that they are pretty powerful and versatile, both of which I like. I tend to use spell slots for smites, but a good cast of Command or some other spells have saved the party's bacon more than once. I even used Zone of Truth to compel an invisible attacker to tell me where he was. My party loved me for that one. The class ablities, like Lay on Hands and Channel Divinity also offer a lot. The save bonus is pretty handy too. So you can be tough and stay on the front lines but still have plenty to offer magically. You can even do some really good healing with things like Aura of Vitality (I think that's what the healig aura spell was called but can't remember).

Two weapon fighting does provide more opportunity to smite, if you aren't using that bonus action already. Though Great Weapon Master gives you more consistent damage boosts and two possibilities for extra attacks anyway. Sword and Board offers some much needed protection without sacrificing much damage and you may want a little control with the bonus action shove you can get with the shield feat. Really though, paladins can do a lot in a round that may involve more than a bonus action attack.

The Magic Initiate feat isn't worth it. Paladins tent to be a bit feat starved because they need the ability boosts. So it's far more worthwhile to pick up feats that compliment your fighting style and Resiliant: Con for that ensured save with your spells. Not losing that haste you cast as a vengeance paladin is worth so much more than Shillelagh.

The spells themselves probably won't be enough to make you a primary healer, outside of one really amazing healing spell (that aura I mentioned earlier). The real appeal of the paladin spell list is the versatility. You have some healing, some combat, and some utility. Never needing to worry about having a horse with Find Steed, for example, is pretty amazing. Come across something that you need a magic weapon to hurt and you have a normal weapon? Just cast magic weapon. The party I play with had an adventure where we were in a bugbear stronghold. One of the bugbears made a break for it to sound the alarm. Once cast of Command to make him come back saved the party. There is a lot a paladin can do with a small spell list. Like I said, I usually default to smite. Though that doesn't mean the spells are useless or mainly focused on healing. You get a good mix with paladins, so you're always useful.

You won't be casting all the time though. Mainly what you do is fight. So don't expect to see a whole lot of spell action if you're used to being a full caster. Paladin's aren't meant to be casters. They are warriors augmented by magic.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Thanks for the solid input folks! I think I see your points. Adding this is how I break it down now:

Two-handed Pali (two greatsword attacks)
4d6 + 2d8 + 6 = 12,46

Two weapon Pali (two handaxe attacks)
2d6 + 2d8 + 6 = 10,34

Two weapon Pali (two handaxe attacks, one handaxe TWF attack)
3d6 + 3d8 + 6 = 12,48 (NO bonus action)

and even with the Dual Wielder feat...

Two weapon Pali (two longsword attacks, one longsword TWF attack)
6d8+ 6 = 12,54 (NO bonus action)

At first I thought TWF > Spellsmite effects because TWF does extra damage without requiring a spellslot, but now I see it doesn't give you that much compared to a two-handed weapon with your bonus action open

Meanwhile, Shillelagh via Magic Initiate using WIS instead of CHA is a good catch.

Filing this under "Stop trying to make TWF competitive, it's not going to be competitive" hehe

Your math is ... a bit off there. Your numbers there should be 29, 22, 30 and 33, respectively.

Also, while dual-wielding is inferior to great weapon for a STR-based build, it does remain the best damage option for a DEX-based build (2 shortswords) while giving you all the inherent benefits of deciding to go DEX instead of STR.

 

[WhosAChaoticGoodBoy]

Your math is ... a bit off there. Your numbers there should be 29, 22, 30 and 33, respectively.

My bad! Can you break down how you got those numbers?

 

[Gladius Legis]

Two-handed:
4d6 + 2d8 + 6
= 14 (average) + 9 (avg.) + 6
= 29

Two handaxe attacks:
2d6 + 2d8 + 6
= 7 (avg.) + 9 (avg.) + 6
= 22

Two handaxe attacks + off-hand handaxe:
3d6 + 3d8 + 6
= 10.5 (avg.) + 13.5 (avg.) + 6
= 30

Dual-wielder feat, longswords:
6d8 + 6
= 27 (avg.) + 6
= 33

 

[CydKnight]

You don't need to hold a holy symbol. Wear it around your neck if you don't have a shield.

You need a free hand to perform somatic components, but if you need to do that, just stow away your off-hand weapon that round and cast, since it's not like you're attacking with your off-hand that round anyway. Then draw your off-hand weapon again next round.

Thanks, on the rule clarification on the holy symbol but the answer was in reference to a question about 2-weapon fighting and why people seem to not take that option often as a Paladin.