D&D 4E What Aspects of 4E Made It into 5E?

Hussar

Legend
On the other hand, many examples might superficially resemble 4E features, but really be fundamentally transformed.

Your first example is a very good one.

Healing Surges in 4E was a deal-breaker for me. It was incredibly jarring how they force every character to seek out damage; and the way no healing - not even magical - could affect you once you ran dry was incredibly fun-killing. You simply never press on after the point where any damage effectively lowers your max hp.

In this light (=healing surges being quite alright in 5E and horrible in 4E) I must say no, they're quite dissimilar once you look beyond the surface similarities (such as having the same name).

I think this illustrates my point exactly. There's virtually no difference between hit dice and healing surges. And, no, cleric healing could still affect you when you had no surges left, so, you're mistaken right there. Clerics could "Cure Light Wounds", for example, which did not burn healing surges.

There really is virtually no difference here. The difference is on the class side of things. People tend to forget just how much more healing a 5e party has vs a 3e party. Rangers in 3e didn't get any healing until a minimum 7th level (and then it was a max of 1 cure light per day). Paladins didn't get any spells until 4th (and again, max 1 cure light/day). In 5e there are 4 classes that can't heal on their own (barbarians and the three wizard types). Everyone else can either heal themselves or heal others or both.

But, Hit Dice are written differently, so, yup, they're totally different. Amazing.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Whether you consider them to be roughly equivalent is going to depend on which of those two aspects is more significant to you.
You read my post.

There is no question in your mind as to which one that is.

My entire point was that their "rough equivalence" was completely blown away by their differences.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think this illustrates my point exactly.
No, it illustrates you taking a post making a point and then using that to make the completely opposite point.

Now let me illustrate how to stop discussing with somebody willfully contorting one's arguments.

Ready? Here goes:
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The issues that can emerge from this system are well-known. 4e adresses them through treating the encounter as the site of action resolution, and establishing mechanical parity of builds about the encounter.
IDK about the encounter as the unit of balance. "D&D Gamma World" actually was designed that way, long rests meant virtually nothing, it was all encounter-based - and it was quite different from 4e (no surges, for instance, the only 'daily' most likely a typo).

4e characters have rough parity whether in an encounter or in several or many per day. But, multi-encounter days /are/ harder on all of them than single-encounter days, and a single encounter that's 'nova'd (the party just unloads dailies & action points on it unreservedly) will be much easier than the same one at the end of a long day with few such resources remaining. So the game was designed around a day, especially as far as PC:Monster 'balance'/encounter difficulty is concerned, and the PC classes & other options were designed to be balanced regardless of day length.

Whereas default 4e will push back very hard against an attempt to run itoin the mid-80s and on AD&D spirit.
4e worked best 'above board,' while the classic AD&D worked best with a DM screen ('illusionism,' even). But you can take 4e behind the screen and run it like the classic game, even to the point of using skill challenges, you just don't explain the challenge like you would in 4e, you let em feel their war through, like you were just improvising around a lack of any such structure. ;)

I've run Temple of the Frog in Essentials, and reprised a setting/scenario lifted from my old 1e AD&D campaign in 4e. I did not feel a lot of push-back. Essentials seemed positively enthused about it, if I may anthropomorphize the system a bit. ;)


I suspect this isn't true from WotC's point of view: they made plenty of money from it! (Enough to fund the development and production of 5e.)
Plenty of money is relative. It seems likely that a lot of money went into developing 4e, which didn't do much 'retreading' of past material, and which had a very rapid pace of release the first two years, and was developed concurrently with the last batch of 3e products, and had digital tools being developed, too.

That wasn't money it was making as it went, that was an investment by Hasbro, and according to insider claims the expected return was 50-100 mil a year. 10 years later, in the grip of a boardgaming resurgence and the come-back of the D&D fad of the 80s, the whole TTRPG market isn't 50 mil - even adjusted for inflation, I doubt TSR was pulling that down in the 80s.

So whatever 4e was making, even if DDI was cannibalizing book sales, it was not plenty from the POV of having promised so much.

I've got not idea what that percentage was, but clearly it was sufficient to fund the development and hosting of DDI, as well as the production of 30+ hardbacks. So it seems to have been non-negligible.
Most of that was probably sunk costs, even if they were recovered, the goals weren't met - for a moment, there, D&Ds future if demoted to 'non-core brand' status was in doubt, then Hasbro dropped the whole core brand thing, and it was once again OK to manage a property with investment & expectations consistent with past performance, without fear of being shelved.


Just a point, no horse in this race, but, no, that's not true. D&D fell behind Vampire the Masquerade for a couple of years back in the 90's. .
I'm not aware of either TSR or WWGS sharing sales data back then, but Storyteller was certainly the TTRPG head-space leader through most of the 90s, whatever the relative sales.
Though, of course, there was a interegnum between TSR/2e and WotC/3e, at the end of the 90s.

Whatever form(s) of leadership WWGS had in th 90s, WotC recovered them with 3.0 & open source d20.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Going back to the original topic, one thing I didn't notice anyone mention was the inclusion of "saving throw as duration determiner" effects- i.e. "At the end of each of your turns, repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on yourself on a success" effects, or as 4e more eloquently put it, "(save ends)."

I really like the way 5e mixes the older version of saves-as-avoidance with saves-as-duration from 4e. There's plenty of room for saves to do both.
Saves as duration started in 3.5 with Hold Person. They didn't really work because Save DC could still be so inflated. Actually, repeated saves go all the way back, just not in quite such a clear way.

Though, to be fair 4e didn't do away with saves as avoidance, it just inverted them to make attacks that used to force saves work mechanically like other attacks, a significant simplification that 5e reversed.
 

You read my post.

There is no question in your mind as to which one that is.

My entire point was that their "rough equivalence" was completely blown away by their differences.
Yes, and respectfully, I disagree on this point.

To my perception, they are identical in almost every way that matters, and their differences mostly revolve around obscure corner-case scenarios that are unlikely to ever arise during gameplay. As such, I consider recovery Hit Dice to be an aspect of 4E which made it into 5E virtually unaltered. YMMV, obviously.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
That said, I wish WotC had done enough playtesting, with a wide enough range of D&Ders (including those who aren't MtG enthusiasts), to discover how unpopular 4E would be.

By my recollection, WotC did a lot of market research.

Even so, back in the day, I predicted 4Ed would be the “New Coke” of D&D. And like the actual New Coke case, I suspect that no amount of research (of which there was LOTS) would have revealed how the market as a whole would react, or at least, how the reaction would break along certain demographics (particularly based on gaming experience).
 


Zardnaar

Legend
More of 4E made it in than most of the other systems just not the 4E class design. 5E is a tweaked 4E with classes inspired by all editions and dumping 3E/4E type feats and expected magic items.

5E is basically a modern d20 game duplicating the pre 3E playstyle except the grime and gritty part which was mostly a handful of infamous adventures.
 

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