D&D 4E What do you think of the 4E background to demons & devils?

[cignus_pfaccari]

Count me firmly in the middle. I do not find the changes threatening in any way, shape, or form, but am not terribly excited about them.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth is what draws me.

Brad

 

[Baduin]

As regards Succubi, I think their presence in the Abyss can be explained quite easily. We know that Ice Devils are actually captive demons. So, if Succubi are actually devils, what do they do in Abyss? When the question is so stated, the answer is obvious. The usual duty of Succubi is to seduce, corrupt and control. So, they have been sent to Abyss in order to control the demons.

It also pretty well explains the reason why both Malcanthet and Shami-Amourae oppose Demogorgon in the Savage Tide Adventure Path - that is the reason for which they have been sent to Abyss. They were to control him, and when that proved impossible, to betray and defeat him.


Similarly, I think the new system fits Greyhawk much better than the old one. In the Great Wheel cosmology, the true war between demons and devils took part on the planes; the Greyhawk was merely a backwater, with all the strategic significance of Africa during the First World War.

Now, the Material Plane lies between Abyss and Astral Sea. The demons wanting to go upward will naturally pass by it. On the other hand devils must be summoned by someone to appear outside of Hell. And that someone will usually live on the Prime plane, not in the Astral Sea.

It seems clear that Grazzt fathered Iuz to destroy Greyhawk - you cannot destroy a whole world with your bare hands, a bit of ingenuity is called for. Iuz himself probably wanted only to rule, but had to rely on his demonic allies - and as the result his Greyhawk wars had inflicted a mortal wound on the old Greyhawk.

The Great Kingdom and Scarlet Brotherhood summoned devils as allies against demons, and the devils corrupted them (eg Ivid the Undying). The rulers are probably all possessed.

 

[billd91]

D&D 4E: The New Coke of D&D Editions....

If this is true, it says more about gamer identity issues than the product itself. New Coke failed, in large part, because it disrupted Coke drinkers' identity as Coke drinkers, not because of the merits of the drink itself.

 

[Kendermage]

Would that make the Brain in the Jar, Max Headrom?

 

[Dragonhelm]

If this is true, it says more about gamer identity issues than the product itself. New Coke failed, in large part, because it disrupted Coke drinkers' identity as Coke drinkers, not because of the merits of the drink itself.

I remember when New Coke came out. Trust me when I say that it was a nasty-tasting drink.


As for my thoughts on devils and demons...

Maybe the new article helps explain devils and demons a bit more and what motivates them, but I truly was hoping for something a bit more original. The fallen angel theme has been done over and over again. At least give me a truly unique twist on the theme.

As for the cosmology, I think it best to separate the 4e cosmology from all previous iterations. I think people will enjoy both cosmologies more if they don't compare them too closely. Find the cosmology you like the best, then run with it.

 

[Desdichado]

I remember when New Coke came out. Trust me when I say that it was a nasty-tasting drink.

I remember it too. I liked it better than "regular" Coke.

 

[Dragonhelm]

I remember it too. I liked it better than "regular" Coke.

Which just accents the point that if D&D4e really is the "New Coke" of D&D editions (and I don't think it is), then it will appeal to some and not to others. Go with the taste that works for you.

 

[Glyfair]

Which just accents the point that if D&D4e really is the "New Coke" of D&D editions (and I don't think it is), then it will appeal to some and not to others. Go with the taste that works for you.

Looking through the "New Coke" wikipedia entry I see another possible parallel.

Discussing the taste tests armed with samples of a possible new soft drink:

The results of that were strong — the high fructose corn syrup mixture overwhelmingly beat both regular Coke and Pepsi. Then tasters were asked if they would buy and drink it if it were Coca-Cola. Most said yes, they would, although it would take some getting used to. A small minority, about 10-12%, felt angry and alienated at the very thought, saying that they might stop drinking Coke altogether. Their presence in focus groups tended to skew results in a more negative direction as they exerted indirect peer pressure on other participants.

Sound familiar?

Edit: And having read through the article, it seems most interesting that New Coke kept doing what it was designed to do - win taste tests. However, many people got angry when they found out they had chosen a brand different than their "favorite."

 

[Wormwood]

Sound familiar?

Edit: And having read through the article, it seems most interesting that New Coke kept doing what it was designed to do - win taste tests. However, many people got angry when they found out they had chosen a brand different than their "favorite."

Oh this just gets more depressing.

 

[Shemeska]

I don't see how it's unfortunate or something we're "back to." Gods (meaning the primary gods of a setting) have always been greater than archfiends. That doesn't mean that a god has nothing to fear from an archfiend.

I respectfully disagree Chris

While different authors have had different perspectives on the matter over the years, I can think of enough examples where it was pretty solid that (at least on their native planes mind you) archfiends were a notch above a deity who also happened to make their domain on that plane.

We had Gruumsh and Maglubiyet evicted from Baator and dumped into Acheron because the squabbling of their petitioners drew the ire of the Lords of the 9. Khin-Oin the Wasting Tower was carved from the spine of a god killed by the 'loths. The early history of the Blood War involved gods on both sides, till growing tired of deific hedging in on "their" genocidal conflict, every single god involved began to have their deific essence fragment and decay, till one of them abruptly and horribly died, at which point the others dropped their involvement like a hot potato. And there's another instance [see 'Hellbound'] of a god killed slowly and agonizingly by the wholesale slaughter of their worshippers, and the suffocation of their faith, on a planetary scale by the fiends.

Plus for a more recent example, Lolth seems to have ended the edition struggling to secure the borders of her deific domain in the Abyss and prevent Demogorgon and Zuggtmoy from ripping control of layer 66 away from her.

Certainly I side with the perspectives that some other writers in the past have had: the fiends are the true rulers of their respective planes. Gods like Lolth might have an evil alignment, but the archfiends are the physical manifestations of Evil. Call it home field advantage if you want. Outside of those planes however, and certainly on the prime material, they're at a distinct disadvantage to gods who don't have their power supplied by (and apparently anchored to) their native planes.