D&D 4E What do you think of the 4E background to demons & devils?

[Desdichado]

Blegh. I think the distinction between god and archfiend is too esoteric a detail to be maintained. In fact, for my current Freeport game, all the gods are thinly disguised archfiends. The Black Pirate, patron of the city (also called the Six-fingered Man and Grazazat) is one, Dagon, god of the Sea, Bafometh, god of strength, Kardum, the god of war, Urkas, god of death, etc.

If people worship it and it can grant spells, then honestly; what's the difference anyway?

 

[Shemeska]

If people worship it and it can grant spells, then honestly; what's the difference anyway?

Not a whole lot if it's angry at you. Which is another reason I don't care to create a dichotomy between the two, because in practical terms within a game, the difference between the two is academic.

And I agree with you on a point. Let us cherish this precious moment before the flames lick at our heels in another thread or in a page or two.

 

[Desdichado]

And I agree with you on a point. Let us cherish this precious moment before the flames lick at our heels in another thread or in a page or two.

 

[frankthedm]

It's also unclear to what degree the planes will be akin to an afterlife, and the role of mortal souls on the planes remains unclear. I really (really) liked the idea that some demons were the "evolved" souls of wicked mortals (this is Orcus's origin, after all), and it seems like we may be losing that.

Well, this time there is no guaranteed 'afterlife'. No Justice, no Punishment, no Reward. The Gods are not the default keepers of the dead anymore, they do not even know where the dead go. If a mortal wants to endure, the onus is upon him to find a way to do so.

Some cling to the shadowfell as undead, though it does not seem unreasonable that a particular potent mortal soul to be able to cast itself into the maelstrom to reform itself. I almost suspect that might be the fluff behind the Elemental Archons in addition to the demons. The devils abode may no longer be the default destination for Bad People but that does not mean Asmodeus’s crew won't have snagged a generous portion of souls through conniving and contracts, fattening the ranks of the devils either as Soul Food or newly spawned lesser devils.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

It shows a lot of guts to change the game so deeply. What D&D needs more is designers who break some eggs now end then, if you get my meaning.

"One cannot make an omelet without first breaking the eggs."

--Joseph Stalin, speaking of the 1933 forced famine in the Ukraine

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Which just accents the point that if D&D4e really is the "New Coke" of D&D editions (and I don't think it is), then it will appeal to some and not to others. Go with the taste that works for you.

Hmmm . . . if D&D 3.5 is Coke, and D&D 4e is New Coke, what's AD&D?

 

[frankthedm]

Hmmm . . . if D&D 3.5 is Coke, and D&D 4e is New Coke, what's AD&D?

The coke in they syrup and seltzer form. Only the Soda Jerk could get the flavor wrong or right.

OD&D was when the cocaine was still in it

 

[ruleslawyer]

I respectfully disagree Chris.
While different authors have had different perspectives on the matter over the years, I can think of enough examples where it was pretty solid that (at least on their native planes mind you) archfiends were a notch above a deity who also happened to make their domain on that plane.

We had Gruumsh and Maglubiyet evicted from Baator and dumped into Acheron because the squabbling of their petitioners drew the ire of the Lords of the 9. Khin-Oin the Wasting Tower was carved from the spine of a god killed by the 'loths. The early history of the Blood War involved gods on both sides, till growing tired of deific hedging in on "their" genocidal conflict, every single god involved began to have their deific essence fragment and decay, till one of them abruptly and horribly died, at which point the others dropped their involvement like a hot potato. And there's another instance [see 'Hellbound'] of a god killed slowly and agonizingly by the wholesale slaughter of their worshippers, and the suffocation of their faith, on a planetary scale by the fiends.

Plus for a more recent example, Lolth seems to have ended the edition struggling to secure the borders of her deific domain in the Abyss and prevent Demogorgon and Zuggtmoy from ripping control of layer 66 away from her.

Certainly I side with the perspectives that some other writers in the past have had: the fiends are the true rulers of their respective planes. Gods like Lolth might have an evil alignment, but the archfiends are the physical manifestations of Evil. Call it home field advantage if you want. Outside of those planes however, and certainly on the prime material, they're at a distinct disadvantage to gods who don't have their power supplied by (and apparently anchored to) their native planes.

That's one reading among MANY. In any edition in which deities and archfiends have actually had stats (OD&D, 1e, and 3e) deities >> archfiends by a substantial amount, home field advantage or no. Lolth is an excellent example. When she was "just" a demon lord back in the day, she was a 132-hp monster with some nice lesser god powers on her home plane. (Compare to, say, Solonor Thelandira with 308 hp base and some serious class level and ability score advantages.)

As to Maglubiyet and Gruumsh getting "kicked out" of the Hells: That's something that got inserted in the midst of Planescape as an explanation for the planar move that was simply retconned by Gygax (first to Gehenna, then to Acheron). It seems to have been added by Colin McComb to heighten the awe of the (suddenly more trumped-up and mysterious than they'd been in 1e) Lords of the Nine.

And all the yugoloths banding together to kill a god hardly indicates that gods are weaker than archfiends. Throw enough CR 11-20 monsters at ANYTHING and it'll go down eventually, especially if you're targeting its worshipers or the thing itself.

Just my $.02.

 

[Shemeska]

That's one reading among MANY.

*grin* Yes, and it's the one that I prefer, from the period when the planes received the most attention of any edition.

And being the internet, as far as alternate readings go, my response to them is a very solid:

 

[Nifft]

OD&D was when the cocaine was still in it

That totally explains why my games used to last all night, but now end at a reasonable hour.

Cheers, -- N