Pathfinder 2E What does Pathfinder lack?

[Velderan]

At first glance the sheer number of feats looks daunting. Though, once you dig in you find they silo down to about 2-4 choices by level. Gone is the thousand entry level feats and hundreds of chains of yester PF.

Yep, when my group first started looking into PF2e, one of the players searched for feats on AoN and was shocked to see 3,983 results. Their obvious concern was how do you pick from that huge list and the answer of course is that you only really have a few choices per level. It isn't like 5e where all the feats available are options each time you get to pick a feat if your group uses them.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

PF2E is big on teamwork and creating the optimal conditions for characters to land hits and increase chances of critical hits. It's a bad match for the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic.

Well... you could still use Dis/Adv without losing that, if you just sorted the positive things vs negative things and see which side it leans towards. So, just a blanket 'is this situation better for you, neutral or worse for you?'

Buuut, the argument that the +5/-5 is too big of a swing when you're dealing with degrees of success/failure, is very solid. You couldn't just bolt it on to the current system.

You could give a single Shadow of the Demon Lord boon die (+d6 to result) or bane die (-d6 to result) to keep it more controllable, but then you lose the reliability of avoiding low rolls.

 

[Staffan]

At first glance the sheer number of feats looks daunting. Though, once you dig in you find they silo down to about 2-4 choices by level. Gone is the thousand entry level feats and hundreds of chains of yester PF.

Sort of, yes, at least for class feats (general and skill feats are a bit more open, though you're still generally funneled into one direction by proficiency choices). But archetypes widen the scope significantly. So I'd say the feat choice algorithm goes sort of like this:

• Do you want something that makes you better at what you're doing?
  • Yes:
    • Either pick one of the 2-4 class feats available at your level, depending on prerequisites, or
    • Pick a lower-level feat in case none of the new ones appeal and you remember having a hard time choosing earlier.
  • No:
    • Get an archetype or pick a new feat from an archetype you already have.

The last option is where you have a wealth of possible choices, but generally you already have an idea about what you want which should narrow things down ("Oh, so you want more healing? Well, there's the Medic if you want the skill-based option, Blessed One if you want to lay on hands like a champ, or Herbalist if you want a more alchemical route.").

 

[Staffan]

Advantage and Disadvantage would be undesirable in PF2E.

The mechanic itself does exist in PF2, but it's very rarely used. It is pretty much exclusively the domain of Fortune/Misfortune effects, and not the "Eh, let's give advantage for that" catch-all it is in 5e.

 

[payn]

The mechanic itself does exist in PF2, but it's very rarely used. It is pretty much exclusively the domain of Fortune/Misfortune effects, and not the "Eh, let's give advantage for that" catch-all it is in 5e.

This is a more attractive use of the mechanic, IMO.

 

[Lojaan]

Sort of, yes, at least for class feats (general and skill feats are a bit more open, though you're still generally funneled into one direction by proficiency choices). But archetypes widen the scope significantly. So I'd say the feat choice algorithm goes sort of like this:

• Do you want something that makes you better at what you're doing?
  • Yes:
    • Either pick one of the 2-4 class feats available at your level, depending on prerequisites, or
    • Pick a lower-level feat in case none of the new ones appeal and you remember having a hard time choosing earlier.
  • No:
    • Get an archetype or pick a new feat from an archetype you already have.

The last option is where you have a wealth of possible choices, but generally you already have an idea about what you want which should narrow things down ("Oh, so you want more healing? Well, there's the Medic if you want the skill-based option, Blessed One if you want to lay on hands like a champ, or Herbalist if you want a more alchemical route.").

I am seriously considering not allowing archetypes in my game, other than multi-class. There is just too many of them, too much over lap, and the power levels seem to vary wildly. Even just thinking about reading through them all is exhausting.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yep, when my group first started looking into PF2e, one of the players searched for feats on AoN and was shocked to see 3,983 results. Their obvious concern was how do you pick from that huge list and the answer of course is that you only really have a few choices per level. It isn't like 5e where all the feats available are options each time you get to pick a feat if your group uses them.

I cannot tell you how many times I have to emphasize that. Once you've settled in on a class, most feats in the total list are about as relevant to you as what someone is having for breakfast on the other side of the planet.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You could give a single Shadow of the Demon Lord boon die (+d6 to result) or bane die (-d6 to result) to keep it more controllable, but then you lose the reliability of avoiding low rolls.

Its funny, I was going to bring up the boon/bane system (an approach I find far more palatable than the 5e Adv/Dis system) but it only seemed vaguely relevant, and really works in its own system because of the heavy constraints of target number.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sort of, yes, at least for class feats (general and skill feats are a bit more open, though you're still generally funneled into one direction by proficiency choices). But archetypes widen the scope significantly. So I'd say the feat choice algorithm goes sort of like this:

• Do you want something that makes you better at what you're doing?
  • Yes:
    • Either pick one of the 2-4 class feats available at your level, depending on prerequisites, or
    • Pick a lower-level feat in case none of the new ones appeal and you remember having a hard time choosing earlier.
  • No:
    • Get an archetype or pick a new feat from an archetype you already have.

The last option is where you have a wealth of possible choices, but generally you already have an idea about what you want which should narrow things down ("Oh, so you want more healing? Well, there's the Medic if you want the skill-based option, Blessed One if you want to lay on hands like a champ, or Herbalist if you want a more alchemical route.").

Yeah, but even Archetypes tend to channel you to some degree since you can only choose a new one after taking X number from the old one.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I am seriously considering not allowing archetypes in my game, other than multi-class. There is just too many of them, too much over lap, and the power levels seem to vary wildly. Even just thinking about reading through them all is exhausting.

Eh. Even the best ones are hardly game breakers. At worst people need to look at ones they're considering and see if they're worth the trouble.