D&D General What ever happened to the Cavalier?

[FrogReaver]

Solution to mounted combat is to give mounts levels. A level 5 warhorse should be a spectacle to behold!

 

[bedir than]

The sidekick rules work for levelling up horses.

My expert horse that unlocks doors with his lips (also, this is my real horse)

 

[Kinematics]

Also, while it's probably beyond the scope of a normal cavalier, what about carts, wagons and other vehicles drawn by a mount or multiple mounts. Should they be handled using the same mount rules? I'm not particularly fond of the vehicles rules from Descent into Avernus and would like a somewhat streamlined version of that and possibly the ship rules from Saltmarsh.

I don't know what Descent into Avernus does with vehicles. For handling those creatures, though, I'd say that the rules I put together should work the same for them, mostly. They wouldn't be set up to do anything directly combat related, but if they are significant player property, the equipment aspects should still be appropriate. Probably not if it was just a rented wagon or something, though.

Ship rules are an entirely different kettle of fish, and not something I'm ready to explore right now.

 

[Sir_Einon]

The Cavalier fighter would be cool if it wasn’t randomly also the defender fighter.

That would be because “Defender” is a very useful niche for general fighter stuff while simultaneously making mounted combat much more viable. Solving one of the main problems with the archetype.

The ability to make it harder for foes to hit your allies whilst punishing them for attempting it is equally great whether you’re ‘grabbing aggro’ from the rogue or disincentivising attacks against your mount.

The ability to always land on your feet when knocked off your mount further disincentivises attacking said mount as not only will doing so give the fighter free attacks & have disadvantage to hit anyway, but even if you kill the horse you don’t get much out of it, whilst being a small enough boost that it doesn’t require you nerf the Cavalier in general combat.

Grab Sentinel with one of your bonus feats & now nobody can attack your horse without you getting a reaction attack immediately, a bonus attack on your turn & disadvantage on the roll to do so, for no practical benefit to the foe even if successful. Grab a lance to keep enemies at range if you’re still skittish, if they get close, drop it and draw steel!

 

[Sir_Einon]

Plus, since the 5e Cavalier is not rendered ineffective when unmounted, you can kind of just treat horses as valuable but replaceable equipment. Even a warhorse is not going to be as expensive as the armour you’re hopefully putting it in, which you can heartlessly (or tearfully) strip off the poor beast & reuse. Honestly though as long as you’re judicious in your use of your mount, the Cavalier abilities serve to keep them from getting killed in battle quite well.

And whilst relatively fragile, a warhorse can take an average hit from say, a Hill Giant’s greatclub & survive, from full health anway. But yeah, preferably avoid taking those hits.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That would be because “Defender” is a very useful niche for general fighter stuff while simultaneously making mounted combat much more viable. Solving one of the main problems with the archetype.

Not really. You can just write abilities that protect the mount.

The ability to make it harder for foes to hit your allies whilst punishing them for attempting it is equally great whether you’re ‘grabbing aggro’ from the rogue or disincentivising attacks against your mount.

Great. Why is it the niche of the cavalier, which has no history I can think of for being a defender/guardian/etc, rather than the guy leader the charge?

The ability to always land on your feet when knocked off your mount further disincentivises attacking said mount as not only will doing so give the fighter free attacks & have disadvantage to hit anyway, but even if you kill the horse you don’t get much out of it, whilst being a small enough boost that it doesn’t require you nerf the Cavalier in general combat.

Sure, but it has nothing to do with defender mechanics.

Grab Sentinel with one of your bonus feats & now nobody can attack your horse without you getting a reaction attack immediately, a bonus attack on your turn & disadvantage on the roll to do so, for no practical benefit to the foe even if successful. Grab a lance to keep enemies at range if you’re still skittish, if they get close, drop it and draw steel!

That doesn’t sound anything like a cavalier, but okay.

 

[Sir_Einon]

Not really. You can just write abilities that protect the mount.

Sure, but it has nothing to do with defender mechanics.

For every ability dedicated solely to protecting a mount, that’s one less ability for general use. One of the main critiques of the Cavalier archetype in a game that doesn’t always allow use of a mount. Abilities that are generally useful but that synergise with mounted combat solve this issue neatly.

Abilities that protect your mount from attack don’t suddenly become inappropriate for the charging knight just because they also help protect your allies. The 5e Cavalier also gets a charging ability to knock foes prone, which handily works whether mounted or not & seems to line up with what you’re after, as well as the mentioned ability to always land upright when dismounted & advantage to stay in the saddle.

If you think charging in with lance in hand & sword on your side doesn’t sound like a cavalier we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you think charging in with lance in hand & sword on your side doesn’t sound like a cavalier we’ll have to agree to disagree.

way to present my stance as the opposite of what I’ve actually said.

And in 5e “keep your pet alive” mechanics have been values basically as ribbons.

The cavalier could have had the ability to ride through enemy spaces and knock down anyone in those spaces if they fail a save. They could have a “break the wall” charge ability that tries to scatter a group, allowing another heavy to go straight for the mage or whatever.

There are all kinds of abilities they could have, that aren’t about hanging around the wizard to guard him.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Anyway, I would actually seriously consider combining the cavalier and Captain into one character type that is a mix of non-caster Bard (well, okay the 5e Bard is a crap Bard but conceptually), swashbuckler rogue, and Banneret and Battle Master Fighter.

You call the charge, and your allies get inspired to fight harder for X time, meanwhile you can single out a target and either boost ally damage against it or call it out yourself (basically compelled duel), keep the cavalier’s mount stuff, and accomplish some of the above with manuevers, along with a scattering charge, a rundown maneuver, and some “if you are mounted when you use this ability it does XYZ” stuff added to those abilities to make them smoothly work regardless.

Some stuff is easy, like giving a nearby ally a damage bonus for a turn. Or givin nearby allies THP.

 

[Lanefan]

I'll just note that few fantasy movies have as consistent a tendency to run into, well, area effects, and you relatively rarely see someone deliberately try to take a horse out from someone

Even though doing so is often the most effective option if you can pull it off, particularly if your foe is mounted and you are not.