What if the martial/caster divide were optional?

Tony Vargas

Legend
Is the martial/caster divide still a problem, if being a martial or a caster is purely voluntary?
Obviously, yes, since being a martial or caster has always been voluntary, and it's always been a problem (even if not always to the same degree). The concepts that call for a martial character are too familiar/desirable to just be cast aside because they're inferior - thus the fighter, always the most popular class, generally among the worst classes, being a 'trap,' for instance.

3e and 5e made it a little harder to be a 'pure' martial, perhaps - 3e had juicy martial feature on classes, like the ranger, that got spells out of the lower levels, so complicated multiclass builds; 5e has no simply non-caster class, just a handful of sub-class - but that's about it.

Now,
You're playing an RPG that provides a la carte character options:
  • any PC can learn magic.
  • any PC can use weapons or armor.
  • spell and weapon damages generally cap at the same level.
  • there is a decent selection of non-damaging spells, some of which create effects that make specialists feel silly (like charm, unlock, invisibility...)
The balance issue with this hypothetical arrangement is that there appears to be a range of effectiveness outside of dishing damage in combat that is only accessible to casters, making them more versatile, as has always been the case in D&D. That said gap widens or narrows with the focus of a campaign only makes it worse.

(there also appear to be no non-damaging abilities other than spells, presumably just to simplify the example, perhaps they're equally accessible to all characters w/o any trade-off, or otherwise irrelevant?)
 

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
there is a decent selection of non-damaging spells, some of which create effects that make specialists feel silly (like charm, unlock, invisibility...)
I think this is the crux of the question right here. If everything else is equal, as you've set it up, then this is the one piece that's doesn't match. Would non-casters be able to do the same things? If not, there's still a martial vs caster divide.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
That depends on the resources required to be decent at both magic and combat.
  • If you have to buy basic stats (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc.) with a point-based system then it can be difficult to be any good at both magic and combat. Being poor at both is usually not much fun. Under such systems, I usually specialise, because I like accomplishing things within games.
  • If stats are randomly generated, then there will be some characters who are good at both, as demonstrated with multi-classed characters in early versions of D&D. I've played both specialised and multi-classed characters in such systems, depending on the game and the setting.
Let's assume that the RPG permits being decent at both arms and magic. I'll agree that a game that forces incompetence on PCs doesn't sound like fun.

I honestly think that having freely-usable spells that are just better than skills are usually bad design. There should be something (other than prepared casting, since this isn't D&D) that makes it not always the best choice.
The point of using magic is to be able to do what one normally could not, right? That encompasses a lot of possibilities. The germane instances are spells that do more damage than weapons, that are more protective than armor, or that are more useful than skills, I guess. A reasonable limit or approach is that these spells are usable less frequently than the skills are. Or that the magical weapons, armor, or skills are inferior to the real ones, but easier to acquire (for the caster). So it's not about being better, but more accessible...

Obviously, yes, since being a martial or caster has always been voluntary, and it's always been a problem (even if not always to the same degree). The concepts that call for a martial character are too familiar/desirable to just be cast aside because they're inferior - thus the fighter, always the most popular class, generally among the worst classes, being a 'trap,' for instance.
Hardly a trap, if the player desires playing a fighter. If the player instead desires to do the most damage or have the most options for world interaction, then maybe caster would be a better choice.

In the OP game, someone wanting to play a fighter, but have the flexibility of a caster, can simply choose to learn a spell. If that solves the martial/caster problem, then I think the "martial/caster problem" is really the "WotC class design problem." (I, for one, will not tell WotC that it doesn't know how to design D&D classes. However, I will homebrew classes in a heartbeat.)

The balance issue with this hypothetical arrangement is that there appears to be a range of effectiveness outside of dishing damage in combat that is only accessible to casters, making them more versatile, as has always been the case in D&D. That said gap widens or narrows with the focus of a campaign only makes it worse.

(there also appear to be no non-damaging abilities other than spells, presumably just to simplify the example, perhaps they're equally accessible to all characters w/o any trade-off, or otherwise irrelevant?)
In the OP game, flexibility is a player choice. Does that make martial/caster a player problem, instead of a game problem?

If I understand the parenthetical correctly, yes, it's fair to assume that non-damaging abilities, what I'd call skills, are equally accessible to all characters. There's always a trade-off: a player chooses one ability at the expense of not choosing (presently) another. So, learning some smithing means waiting to learn some axe-throwing or teleport-casting.
 

dbm

Savage!
Games which allow mixing are my preference by far; I love flexible characters. This might be achieved through a more points-buy approach (GURPS, HERO, Savage Worlds, Fate and many more) or through having a wide array of classes that mix magical and non-magical capabilities (RoleMaster is the king here IMO).

Mixing magical and non-magical is fine as long as the two are balanced in some way. That could be through magic being inflexible (old skool spell slots for example), using a limited resource (like spell points of some kind) or having an inbuilt risk or negative (like corruption of the caster or their environment, or obligation to a higher being who may be demanding / inherently evil / socially unacceptable). That way, you can balance the increased ‘impact’ of magic (doing more damage to a target, large scale attacks, changing the environment, achieving the otherwise impossible and so on) against the generally more unconstrained application of non-magical methods.

Factor in the impact of magic and its limitations then you can work out relative cost of character options - “what level of sword skill is comparable to being able to cast fireball?” etc. It’s tricky and quite a bit of work. The more flexible the system the harder it is to get the balance ‘perfect’ but perfection shouldn’t be the enemy of good enough.

ETA: in my experience some people will play non-magical only, some highly magical focussed and some more hybrid when given the choice as we all have preferences. This will be more ‘natural’ in distribution when the options are well balanced with no ‘obviously best’ option. So - in a well implemented system there will be variety and few issues.
 
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dbm

Savage!
A system that allows me to create effects and flavour them as Martial or Magic as I wish would be great.
Any ‘effects based’ system like HERO would allow you to do that. The write up of martial arts forms in npc HERO characters I have seen is basically using the ‘variable power pool’ system that is also typically used for magic, for example.
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
This sounds a bit like Runequest, There's not really a distinction between martial and caster because everyone can (and probably will) get both magic and mundane skills. Anyone can learn a spell such as Bladesharp which gives +5% to weapon skill and +1 damage per point (though Bladesharp 4 is the top level and very expensive). I can have 90% skill with a weapon and you can have 70% skill with the weapon and 70% skill in casting Bladesharp, and one of those is easier to reach than the other. It's very possible to get more powerful magic than that but it requires that you become dedicated to one particular path to that sort of magic and will but you off from many others. Priests of the Sun God Yelm have magic related to fire and light, not magic to control water or create darkness; wizards/sorcerors may have a grimoure related to ship-magic, it won't help them improve the strength of their armour; practitioners of a Praxian spirit tradition aren't going to have much knowledge or relationship with spirits in Balazar.

Some characters will certainly be more inclined to use magic than rely on mundane skills, but even the most dedicated caster is also capable of fighting with a weapon and any character is going to have at least a small amount of magic. Balance depends on a lot of different things and a game which allowed you to have 90% with sword-swinging or 90% at casting any spell from the D&D wizard list would absolutely not be balanced or fair to the "martial" character unless the ability to use all those spells was severely restricted through very low pools of "magic points" restricting the amount you could cast.
 

You're playing an RPG that provides a la carte character options:
  • any PC can learn magic.
  • any PC can use weapons or armor.
  • spell and weapon damages generally cap at the same level.
  • there is a decent selection of non-damaging spells, some of which create effects that make specialists feel silly (like charm, unlock, invisibility...)

Would you still create a character with no magic/only magic?
Yes, depending on my mood, interest and the game's theme.
Would you learn a specialist spell for your specialist, e.g. a thief that can unlock with magic?
Maybe. Presumably a thief can open more locks in a day than a magician could. The main benefit is that spells are quick, relatively speaking. Knowing a trick to open the door now, right now, they're gonna find us now can be a good addition to a dexterous thief.
Would you go full Gandalf (give your wizard a one-handed sword)?
Maybe.
Is the martial/caster divide still a problem, if being a martial or a caster is purely voluntary?
No, as long as everyone can participate. (From the viewpoint that it is a problem in D&D, but a minor one.)

****

Thinking about it, EPT had this divide, warriors and magician-priests. One of the balancing aspects was that really bad things happened to magicians who had too much metal on them when they cast spells. Most armor was right out.
 

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
You're playing an RPG that provides a la carte character options:
  • any PC can learn magic.
  • any PC can use weapons or armor.
  • spell and weapon damages generally cap at the same level.
  • there is a decent selection of non-damaging spells, some of which create effects that make specialists feel silly (like charm, unlock, invisibility...)

Would you still create a character with no magic/only magic?
Would you learn a specialist spell for your specialist, e.g. a thief that can unlock with magic?
Would you go full Gandalf (give your wizard a one-handed sword)?
Is the martial/caster divide still a problem, if being a martial or a caster is purely voluntary?
This doesn't solve the problem because all it does is give underpowered classes the option to pick spells in order to suck less, but that has nothing to do with the problem. The problem IS that you have to pick a spellcaster to not suck.
 

Would you still create a character with no magic/only magic?
Yes, they feel interchangeable. You describe pretty much 4ed, where being Martial or arcane don’t matter much.

Would you learn a specialist spell for your specialist, e.g. a thief that can unlock with magic?
Yes, for sure. I want to play a specialist, that can do the job. If magic is needed no problem.

Would you go full Gandalf (give your wizard a one-handed sword)?
Yes.

Is the martial/caster divide still a problem, if being a martial or a caster is purely voluntary?
it never been a problem to me.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
There’s a reason why HERO is my #1RPG system.🤷🏾 There’s also reasons why 3.5Ed is my favorite iteration of D&D.

While my most common FRPG PC archetypes intermingle the mundane and the supernatural, I have played my share of purely martial or purely mystical characters. What I choose to play depends on the campaign setting and my personal inspirations at the time of ChaGen- imbalances don’t really factor into my calculations.

A system or setting that would prevent me from considering a wide variety of potential blends of the mystic & martial would be eyed with skepticism, to say the least.
 

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