What if the martial/caster divide were optional?

[GMMichael]

You're playing an RPG that provides a la carte character options:

• any PC can learn magic.
• any PC can use weapons or armor.
• spell and weapon damages generally cap at the same level.
• there is a decent selection of non-damaging spells, some of which create effects that make specialists feel silly (like charm, unlock, invisibility...)

Would you still create a character with no magic/only magic?
Would you learn a specialist spell for your specialist, e.g. a thief that can unlock with magic?
Would you go full Gandalf (give your wizard a one-handed sword)?
Is the martial/caster divide still a problem, if being a martial or a caster is purely voluntary?

 

[John Dallman]

That depends on the resources required to be decent at both magic and combat.

• If you have to buy basic stats (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc.) with a point-based system then it can be difficult to be any good at both magic and combat. Being poor at both is usually not much fun. Under such systems, I usually specialise, because I like accomplishing things within games.
• If stats are randomly generated, then there will be some characters who are good at both, as demonstrated with multi-classed characters in early versions of D&D. I've played both specialised and multi-classed characters in such systems, depending on the game and the setting.

 

[Leatherhead]

Is the martial/caster divide still a problem, if being a martial or a caster is purely voluntary?

Yes. And being a martial or a caster is already purely voluntary.

 

[The Shadow]

I honestly think that having freely-usable spells that are just better than skills are usually bad design. There should be something (other than prepared casting, since this isn't D&D) that makes it not always the best choice.

With that in mind, Fate fills the bill. There's two basic ways to handle magic in Fate - either have it just be one way of flavoring your character's skills, or create a full-blown subsystem for it.

If the former, some people will flavor things as magic, others not, yet others as some magic and some not. It doesn't matter - your Invisibility spell is just the justification for why your Stealth skill is high.

If the latter (my group's usual preference) it is usually tacitly assumed that most PCs will eventually end up using magic for at least some things, if not from day one.

We usually create two distinct forms of magic with distinct tradeoffs and often with a tight theme.

In one campaign, the two types were Sorcery and Wizardry. Sorcery involved making a pact with a specific spirit. (None of which were nice by human standards, though some were more tolerable than others.) It gave you great power, but in a few narrow areas. Wizardry involved stealthily siphoning power from the spirit of your choice. It was much broader, but considerably weaker, and it made all spirits HATE you. (Hence it was impossible to be both.)

Our starting lineup was a sorcerous thief, a sword-wielding wizard, and a mundane con artist who eventually ended up making a sorcerous pact as well.

In our current campaign, the two types are Sorcery and Ritual Magic. Sorcery this time is a tightly-thematic bloodline ability. Ritual Magic can be done by virtually anyone with Lore skill. It has well-defined things it can do, but takes a painfully long time to do anything and often needs multiple people. In this one, everybody has at least a touch of Ritual Magic (with different specialties) and two of the three PCs have sorcerous bloodlines, though one of them didn't realize it at first.

Part of the fun has been, "what if you have two bloodlines?" Turns out one is always dominant, but Ritual Magic can change which one! We've also started to realize that rituals can transfer a bloodline power from one person to another, if you know what you're doing and have special components.

 

[DammitVictor]

I'm always multiclassed. I'm always gish, and I'm always a skillmonkey.

If a game doesn't allow me to meaningfully indulge that fantasy, I don't play that game.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Is the martial/caster divide still a problem, if being a martial or a caster is purely voluntary?

If a game premise telegraphs that there are multiple types of characters who you reasonably would want to play in the game, then it is a problem if one of the options is strictly worse (variation and nuance apply as one moves away from that pure example).

If the latter (my group's usual preference) it is usually tacitly assumed that most PCs will eventually end up using magic for at least some things, if not from day one.

This is fine too. If the game is about people who are expected to use magic to solve some problems, then that's fine (you accept or reject the game at the initial buy-in stage).

 

[aco175]

Each level unlocks powers a bit like 4e and the player chooses them. at 5th level you can choose to have an extra attack or cast fireball 1/day. At 3rd level you can critical on 19/20 or cast cure wounds and invisibility. Seems to lose some of the feel for me but I can see where it makes each PC varied and unique. I can see this more as a sci-fi or artificer type D&D where the 'spells' are more techno.

Pump up the jam.

 

[Willie the Duck]

nevermind.

 

[The Shadow]

Oh, we also had a shorter campaign in which magic revolved around interacting with spirits. There were three kinds, based on which social skill you used to interact:

Rapport casters made friends and bargains. They would have to pay through the nose for powerful effects, but so long as they kept their word, the spirits would not get angry with them.

Deceive casters were like Rapport ones, but dishonest - they would trick the spirits into doing what they wanted. So long as their tricks weren't seen through, they'd be fine.

Provoke casters ruled through fear, showing the pesky spirits who's boss! Needless to say, they attracted plenty of hostility when the spirits thought they could get away with it.

In that campaign, all three PCs had magic, each of a different kind. The Rapport caster used magic the most (he was also quite skilled at it) but everybody cast spells most sessions. The Provoke caster used it the least, as magic was competing with being basically a paladin in his build. (Completely badass in a fight.)

 

[Tonguez]

A system that allows me to create effects and flavour them as Martial or Magic as I wish would be great.

so I can create a Fighter who can use Thunder-Strike that hits so hard that she does damage to all creatures in a 15-foot cube and pushes them away 10 feet (con save for half damage) or I can have a Mage that cast Thunderwave 2d8.

@The Shadow all ready mentioned Fates system of flavouring Skills as magic (or Stunts) which is something I like about their system too. 5es own Swarmkeeper Ranger also does something similar with the swarm being a special effect you use to flavour your Mage hand, 1d6 bonus damage/push and overcome difficult terrain (10 ft fly speed)