What is the difference between hidden and unseen?

[Greenstone.Walker]

A couple of recent threads and blog posts have got me thinking about the difference, if there is one, between hidden and unseen in 5E.

Being unseen has a lot of game-mechanical effects (advantage/disadvantage, immunity to opportunity attacks, etc). Are there actually any effects that specifically come from being hidden?

Also, can you be hidden but not unseen?

I believe you can, but I'd probably use the words "camouflaged" or "unnoticed" rather than "hidden". For example, ET hiding in plain sight among the stuffed animals when Eliot's mom looked into the closet. Yes, I know I'm showing my age.

What ability check would you call for if a player said their character was going to hide in plain sight? Perhaps blending in with a crowd? Perhaps disguising themself as someone who is supposed to be there?

 

[Shiroiken]

I've allowed Deception vs. Insight for a character who was talking with an NPC that wanted to surprise attack him (he already had a weapon in hand). I know other DMs wouldn't allow something like that, so it really does depend on how much leeway the DM goes with the rules.

For your questions, I think that Deception vs. Insight is probably the most common response, but I could see Stealth vs. Perception if the character was trying to stay just out of sight in a crowd.

 

[MaximusArael020]

Good question, OP. I'd need to do more research on the "Hidden" vs "Unseen" question, however I can tell you what I as a DM would probably do for the second! For someone trying to hide in a crowd, depending on how they were doing it, I would probably call for a Deception or Performance check, to see if they could adequately "blend in". If they are trying to keep to shadows or using moving carts or something to hide, then a Stealth check would be used, I believe.

 

[Kupursk]

Well you're only hidden from someone if they can't see you. If you go by the meaning of these words...

Camouflage doesn't change that, it's just a different mean to the same end. If you're camouflaged either the opponent has seen through your camouflage or he hasn't. So either you're hidden/unseen or you're not, the same as if you were trying to hide in shadows or behind something.

You may consider that someone camouflaged that's been detected is still harder to pinpoint, and maybe give an AC bonus vs ranged attack or something like that. But that's not the same as saying he's in hiding/unseen.

As for hiding in a crowd, I'd still use Stealth vs Perception, unless you're not trying to remain unseen, per se, but instead you are just trying to appear casual as you follow the target. Then Deception vs Perception or Insight would be appropriate... but if the target has absolutely no reason to be suspicious of you I'd probably not even ask for a check.

 

[MNblockhead]

Unseen and hidden are different because there are multiple senses that can be used to detect someone's positions. You can be unseen but still give your position away because you can be heard or smelled. If you are in a ranged battle and the enemy sees you jump behind a large tree, you are unseen. But they know where you are. You are not hidden.

Being unseen has a lot of game-mechanical effects (advantage/disadvantage, immunity to opportunity attacks, etc). Are there actually any effects that specifically come from being hidden?

Being hidden gives you all the advantages of being unseen. But it goes beyond that. You may be unseen but not hidden. I can't see you after you take cover behind the crates, but I know you are there and I can move to get to you, I can throw a bomb, burning oil, a boulder at you, etc. If you are hidden, however, I have to spend actions to attempt to find you. In short, if you are hidden, I am required to first make a successful search before other actions can be taken against you.

Also, can you be hidden but not unseen?

No. In the RAW in the PHB "hidden" requires that you be both unseen AND unheard (I also require that you be otherwise not perceived, e.g., not detected by smell):

Unseen Attackers and Targets


Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.

When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.

If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

I believe you can, but I'd probably use the words "camouflaged" or "unnoticed" rather than "hidden". For example, ET hiding in plain sight among the stuffed animals when Eliot's mom looked into the closet. Yes, I know I'm showing my age.

No. You are describing an attempt to hide. From the PHB call-out section on "hiding" in Chapter 7:

When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

In your example, ET is attempting to hide. He makes a Dex (Stealth) check contested by Eliot's mom's Wis (Perception) check. If ET's score is higher, he is hidden. If Eliot's mom's score is higher, she detects ET -- in this case sees him and ET is both not hidden and is seen. But it is possible that she instead just HEARS ET, in which case he is not hidden, but remains unseen.

What ability check would you call for if a player said their character was going to hide in plain sight? Perhaps blending in with a crowd? Perhaps disguising themself as someone who is supposed to be there?

Dexterity (Stealth). In 5e there still is a large amount that relies on DM discretion. Hidding in a crowd is one thing. Standing still in the middle of the empty room is something else. Unless you have some special ability, feat, or magic, you need to be able to hide behind or among something. Invisibility is the most common way to hide in without any cover or distraction. But even with invisibility, you still have to make a hide action. There are other things that can give away your position. Hiding isn't all about sight.

 

[jgsugden]

There are is a lot written on this topic. A short version that works well:

Being unseen means that the 'viewer' can't see you for whatever reason. They get disadvantage on attacks, but by itself, being unseen does not mean that your location is not known.

Being hidden means the DM has allowed you to make a hiding stealth check and you've beaten the passive (if the enemy is not using actions to search for you) or active perception check of the potential viewer. If you are hidden, the potential viewer gets no sensory data about you and must guess your location.

In my games, a player makes a stealth check whenever they enter a situation in which others would have difficulty sensing them and their PC desires to be undetected. The quality of their concealment will determine whether this takes an action or requires no action. If it would otherwise require an action, those with cunning action can do it as a bonus. When totally concealed/obscured, it requires no action.

 

[Li Shenron]

A couple of recent threads and blog posts have got me thinking about the difference, if there is one, between hidden and unseen in 5E.

Unseen = not visible
Hidden = location unknown

Being unseen has a lot of game-mechanical effects (advantage/disadvantage, immunity to opportunity attacks, etc). Are there actually any effects that specifically come from being hidden?

Being hidden means you cannot be targeted directly.

You can still be targeted indirectly, for example someone might be allowed to swing a sword or shoot an arrow against a chosen spot and guess your location correctly by chance, or you can be caught in an area spell.

Hidden is also commonly beneficial for attackers. There are a few specific class/feats abilities in the game which mention hidden.

Also, can you be hidden but not unseen?

I believe you can, but I'd probably use the words "camouflaged" or "unnoticed" rather than "hidden". For example, ET hiding in plain sight among the stuffed animals when Eliot's mom looked into the closet. Yes, I know I'm showing my age.

Normally you can't hide from someone who can see you, so you can't be not-unseen and hidden, but special abilities can allow this. Hide in Plain Sight is a good example. A DM can allow to do something like that even without a special ability, if the circumstances seem favorable, but I would advise against making it so easy that it becomes a common tactic to avoid the need for cover or concealment.

However, since you can't target directly someone hidden because you don't know where it is, it doesn't matter whether technically it is unseen or not. Perhaps some corner case when it matters can be fabricated, but I wouldn't bother.

What ability check would you call for if a player said their character was going to hide in plain sight? Perhaps blending in with a crowd? Perhaps disguising themself as someone who is supposed to be there?

Blending in with a crowd is a very good example of something that requires a bit of work.

I would say that a prototypical example of a crowd to consider is the marketplace: a good density of people + lots of noise + constant shifting movement. In such case, someone merging with the crowd should reasonably be allowed a chance to hide through a combination of keeping behind cover (even if technically it's not total cover, at least not all the time) and looking generically similar to others (not necessarily to a specific other).

Depending on the scenario, I could call for different abilities checks, for example:

- someone who is a known individual (i.e. they know how she looks) is trying to merge with the crowd to evade pursuers or to follow someone -> normal Dexterity (Stealth)

- someone who is an unknown individual is trying to pass as a regular patron, while in reality her purpose is to follow, eavesdrop, pickpocket or murder someone -> custom Charisma (Stealth)

 

[dco]

In my games if someone or something is hidden it means its location is not known. You have to search.
Unseen means you can not see it.
For blending in a crow I would use stealth if the character was detected and wanted to hide, or charisma if the character wanted to remain undetected as another pedestrian. For disguise deception, if he wants to act as another person perhaps performance.

 

[Oofta]

The rules errata state that "You cannot hide from a creature that can clearly see you".

So if the DM decides that a creature cannot clearly see you in a crowd (or in a pile of stuffed toys) you can hide. I might use an alternative skill for this such as using a disguise kit or other skill as appropriate.

So you can hide in a crowd if the DM decides it's reasonable.

 

[ExploderWizard]

If you are invisible then you are unseen (unless someone can see/detect invisible) and you may also be hidden.

If the invisible creature farts loudly then it is still unseen but not hidden.