What is "The Forge?"

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LostSoul said:
What do we mean by "entirely disagree"? Let me talk about myself instead of Bastoche, because I think our viewpoints are similar.

When someone says that they disagree with 100% of the theory, to me that means that they see absolutely nothing of value in the theory whatsoever (or that it's all wrong).

Except that that doesn't seem to be the argument that Bastoche is saying.

Rather, he seems to making the argument that the theory includes words written in English, and if you disagree 100% with the theory, then that means you disagree that those words are in English, and boy does that make you dumb.

After all, one of his rebuttals was:

Bastoche said:
If you reject it 100%, it implies you reject each and every little bits they say.

They say that role playing is a game. You rejecting 100% of what they say imply that to you, RPGing is NOT a game. I'm stretching it, but my point is that I'm emphasising on the 100% part. not the rejecting/agreeing/whatever.

The fact that RPGs are a game is not, to my thinking, a part of the theory. Neither is the the fact fascism is a political philosophy. Accepting that does not mean accepting in even the smallest percentage the theory.
 

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fusangite

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Can we just drop the "What does 100% really mean?" thing on all sides? I think we've made our positions clear. Anything from this point forward is just ridiculous lame nitpicking.
 


jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
Jim Hague said:
Perhaps, perhaps it's the mob culture on the boards themselves, the atmosphere of the forum proper, that perpetuates the oft-derided 'Forge attitude'?

Sure, but that mob culture represents the mob (i.e., the majority) ;) Like I said, I think that the Forge has some members (and former members) who are very modest and grounded firmly in reason. I don't think that these folks 'are' the Forge or compose its core membership, however. That said...

I certainly wish this were the case, as I think that a base constituency composed of the sane would elevate the Forge past 'extremist oddity' status in the arena of public opinion, but unless the rational membership grows a spine and asserts themselves, instead of lurking quietly and/or throwing in the towel, I don't see that happening.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
fusangite said:
Can we just drop the "What does 100% really mean?" thing on all sides? I think we've made our positions clear. Anything from this point forward is just ridiculous lame nitpicking.

Good idea.

So I was thinking about what you were talking about earlier, and I'm not sure your points have sunk in yet.

If we have two groups of players with different agendas ("Story Now" vs. "story now" - jeez, that looks lame ;) ) and they get along just fine, does that mean that "Story Now" is too exclusive? Does it mean that using "Story Now" to identify Creative Agenda conflicts is not going to help here, because conflicts (at least in this case) has nothing to do with Creative Agenda?

(I'm using "Story Now" as I define and understand it.)
 

Samuel Leming

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fusangite said:
First off, kudos to Samuel for the thimble/bucket/barrel analogy for the Forge. It expresses my difficulties with the categorization system well.

Thanks for the kind words. Really I’m just pissing at GNS, if the Forge or an particular Forger is getting urine on themselves it’s because they’ve wrapped themselves too tightly in the theory.

Note to the casual reader: Words incased in ‘ ’ are GNS Speak. They may not mean what you think they mean.

I put a little more thought into the theory. GNS describes playing an RPG as ‘Exploring’ the ‘Elements’ of the game and ‘Simulationism’ as the ‘Agenda’ where such ‘Exploration’ is the primary goal. The other two ‘Agenda’ both involve ‘Exploration’ since they’re RPGs, but they’ve specific metagaming components that become the primary focus of the ‘Agendas’. ‘Addressing’ the ‘Premise’ in the case of ‘Narrativism’ and ‘Performance’ vs. ‘Risk’ in the case of ‘Gamism’. Any game where ‘Addressing’ an ‘Element’ through any other metagaming means is relegated to ‘Simulationism’ even though it has very little in common with the mostly metagame free styles they reserved the term for. An example of this would be White Wolf’s Storyteller systems, games that are usually heavy with various forms of metagaming but are crammed into the ‘Sim’ ghetto.

Perhaps a better basis for such a theory would be to identify what metagaming agendas are possible, or at least commonly used and then consider the effect their absence or amplitude have on play.

fusangite said:
Do you mean that it falls into the fourth category of “illusionism” where people only think they’re playing a game. (I was stunned to discover that this was actually part of Forge thought!)

Illusionism? I don’t remember reading about that one, but it sounds interesting. You wouldn’t happen to have a link handy to a full explanation of that one.

Sam
 

Samuel Leming

First Post
Bastoche said:
What I find disgusting in this thread is that people reject what the guys at the forge has to say because of their attitude rather than their ideas. Most people on this thread comment on hearsay. That's low IMO. And the thread is pointless because we can't really argue about their ideas themselves because they are so badly presented on the forge (IMO at the very least).

I am arguing against the ideas presented in the GNS theory. Mainly. Only made one comment about the pretentious naming conventions. Well, two comments now.

The essays in the articles section are fairly easy to read. Those didn’t contain anything about ‘The Big Theory’ though. Would somebody be so kind as to point me towards that or at least a summary of how it differs from GNS?

Sam
 

fusangite

First Post
Samuel Leming said:
Perhaps a better basis for such a theory would be to identify what metagaming agendas are possible, or at least commonly used and then consider the effect their absence or amplitude have on play.
Yeah. That's how I ended up at the Forge. I put forward a similarly-based theory suggesting that one could categorize types of play based on how they functioned predictively. Players decide their characters should take actions based on a reasonable belief that the action will produce a particular outcome; I suggested games could be categorized based on what the player's predictive model centred on. It produced a threefold model that sounded superficially like the GNS system but, on closer examination, wasn't that much like it after all.

There was a rules-centred one where the player's main predictive tool was the rule book. There was a story/world-centred one where they player's main predictive tool was flavour text about the world and his character's lived experiences. And there was a symbolic/literary one where the player's main predictive tool was symbolic resonances between in-game events and literary and mythological tropes in the real world. The superficial parallel was further enhanced in that I was a proponent of the third, highly elitist, snobby kind of play that required a lot of explaining and showing off.

Aside from not being GNS, however, was the problem that my whole idea of a balanced game is to have an equal blend of players emphasizing each predictive model and that all the predictive models pointing towards similar actions was a sign of a successful game. Furthermore, I suggests that players could move happily from on mode to another and should do so.

I've since gotten kind of bored with this theory and instead try to minimize differences among different conceptions of play by trying to universalize the idea that rules=physics, regardless of how one plays, and that narrativist games are just simulationist but with post-modernist physics.
Illusionism? I don’t remember reading about that one, but it sounds interesting. You wouldn’t happen to have a link handy to a full explanation of that one.
No. But it's in the GNS articles. The first time I read them I missed them too; I re-read them last October and noticed Illusionism that time. Edwards was arguing that games by White Wold weren't really games because the players had no free will but were only conned into thinking they were playing, when, in fact, they were spectators. Just go through the GNS explanation with a Find/Search thing and you'll find it.
 

fusangite

First Post
LostSoul said:
Good idea.

So I was thinking about what you were talking about earlier, and I'm not sure your points have sunk in yet.

If we have two groups of players with different agendas
By agenda, do you mean 'creative agenda' or something broader? I would suggest that there are two ways to handle this:
(a) We can go down the road of accepting my minor modification to Ron's system and redefine the narrativist category to be all those games that prioritize 'story now,' of which 'Story Now' is a subset. If that is the case, the agendas don't conflict; one is simply a subset of the other; or
(b) We can keep Ron's mode of categorization in which 'story now' is divided between narrativism (when it equals 'Story Now') and simulationism (when it acts on story on an aesthetic rather than ethical basis).
and they get along just fine, does that mean that "Story Now" is too exclusive?
That's my point if we're going with (a), that over half of the narrativist games are mistakenly classified as simulationist because people are exploring the "wrong" issues with their story-oriented mechanics.
Does it mean that using "Story Now" to identify Creative Agenda conflicts is not going to help here, because conflicts (at least in this case) has nothing to do with Creative Agenda?
Yes. These people are just having an argument about what kinds of things they are collectively going to do in their 'story now' game. They are having a dispute, most likely, about genre rather than about creative agenda. People can work together to produce a satisfying narrative, even if not all the parties to the interaction are attentive to questions of theme.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
fusangite said:
I've since gotten kind of bored with this theory and instead try to minimize differences among different conceptions of play by trying to universalize the idea that rules=physics, regardless of how one plays, and that narrativist games are just simulationist but with post-modernist physics.

That sounds very interesting. Have you written about this anywhere? I'd like to check it out.
 

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