D&D 5E What is the logic behind one 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell?

[Sadrik]

So the best arguments I have seen are:

• Lower level non-damaging spells are still effective due to bounded accuracy. High level opponents will not have proficiency in every save and so you can target one of their bad ones.
• 4 "high level" spells are all right because non-casters do not get that level of power and so why should a caster, it is more "balanced".
• When in a party as a group of casters that is still powerful because each PC will have "high level" spells.

Also one that I thought of that no one else mentioned was that rituals will be available as a non-memorized option.

Scaling spells taper off at 5th level spells. So fireball, for instance, realistically is only going to go up to a 5th level slot because the 6th+ slots are so rare. This is an interesting thing I had not really considered before... I wonder how that affects other spells that list scaling to specific 6th+ spell slots for additional effect.

 

[Dausuul]

I REALLY hate the lack of spell power at higher levels. I would have been fine with it if they let Arcane Reserves work with any level of spell. I also think it's a fallacy that a level 2 spell will work great against high level foes. They get to make a save every round. Even average saving throws are going to break that spell after one or two rounds.

Even if you were right about the duration given average saves (you're not), so what? One or two rounds of paralysis is brutal. If there's a rogue in the party, it's a death sentence.

 

[ccooke]

If you're fighting villagers in your late teen-levels, your DM is doing it, dare I say it, wrong.

In previous editions, that's true.

In 5th edition?

Take a party of 18th level characters. Put them in a lovely, sleepy, average little town or village somewhere on the main trade roads. Have most of the inhabitants mind controlled/whipped into a religious frenzy/actually be cultists/convinced that unless the party dies they and all their family will suffer torment.

Let's see. The town will mostly be Commoners. Maybe 50 of them, thrown into the attacking groups in waves to pad them out. Actually more, but we'll assume they will not all attack at once.
The town would likely have a watch - for a decent, prosperous place let's say five Guards and a Knight to command them. If the town is near open country, you'll have woodsmen - say five Scouts. There will certainly be a temple or church in the town - let's say a Priest and a couple of Acolytes. There will probably be a rougher side to the town - let's call it three thugs. You might have a retired soldier or three as well - three veterans.

That's a big, unwieldy sort of scenario, but it would make a hard encounter for an 18th level party. It could go very nastily if the party are surprised. And I honestly think that a GM who pulled that one on the players would be very much doing it right.

 

[mcintma]

There are many mid to high level enemies with between a +0 and +2 to their Wisdom saving throws. It isn't hard for a level 13 wizard to make their spells have a DC of 18. That is going to take quite a few rounds to break free from.

Most mid-hi monsters have magic resistance (I didn't run the numbers myself, someone else did on another thread here at EN).

 

[Celtavian]

You do get two 6th and 7th slots. One 8th and 9th. Unless you're a warlock. Warlocks get fewer due to having other powerful abilities.

 

[mcintma]

If you're fighting villagers in your late teen-levels, your DM is doing it, dare I say it, wrong.

Yeah, meteor swarm is great in the right circumstance, but not so much when things have energy immunity/res, auto-save, magic res, evasion, etc. A fair number of mid-hi monsters will shrug it off. I only say this because it seems to be touted as an instant-win spell or something - which it can be, if the wizard knows ahead of time he'll be facing hordes of minions from long range for ex.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Yeah, meteor swarm is great in the right circumstance, but not so much when things have energy immunity/res, auto-save, magic res, evasion, etc. A fair number of mid-hi monsters will shrug it off. I only say this because it seems to be touted as an instant-win spell or something - which it can be, if the wizard knows ahead of time he'll be facing hordes of minions from long range for ex.

The thing is, many high-level spells can be equally crazy in the right situation. A few of them, like True Polymorph and Foresight, can be very effective in MOST situations, and last for quite a while (or forever).

 

[Sadras]

In previous editions, that's true.

In 5th edition?

That makes no sense, the scenario you came up with is viable for at least the first three editions on surprise. Without surprise I sincerely doubt the village will pose a struggle in any edition with 18th level characters.

 

[Psikerlord#]

To answer the OP: balance baby, balance. 8th and 9th level spells are crazy awesome.

 

[ccooke]

That makes no sense, the scenario you came up with is viable for at least the first three editions on surprise. Without surprise I sincerely doubt the village will pose a struggle in any edition with 18th level characters.

I think you might be surprised (sorry).

Well, sure, if they formed up and attacked en-masse then yes, a high level party would eviscerate them.
However, if they attacked in small groups and attacked a few at a time without giving the high level party time to rest? Especially if they can do so in a place that the party has limited room
to manoeuvre... it could easily get unpleasant.

I'd probably start such a scenario with a thief attempting to steal their belongings while they slept, then have attacks start in wherever the party are staying. Probably have them send some people into the building to die, barricade it up and set fire to it. Sure, an 18th level party will get out of that, but at a cost in resources. Once they escape the building, they will constantly face ambushes by groups of townspeople, most of whom look alike - they won't know if the five attacking them are all commoners or if they have a thug present who can hit a lot harder. The scouts would hide in sniper positions, attacking any time they had line of sight and moving to a new position after.

Now, this isn't going to be a deadly encounter. You would need to include a lot more creatures with better stats than a village would have for that. But it could certainly be made with medium or hard difficulty.

And yes, the party could use one of a number of spells to avoid the encounter entirely. But they could do that with any number of threats, including some deadly ones. If the party run away from fighting an entire village, I think that demonstrates that the village has a real possibility to damage them!