What makes Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter so good?

[BookBarbarian]

Overkill is pretty much never part of the theoretical discussions because it's too complex to figure out.

Just like there'a always the assumption that GWM will get buffs or advantage that somehow are never applied to the other fighting styles. Or that maybe, just maybe, chasing after DPR doesn't really matter all that much to some people.

For what it's worth, with GWM I'm usually not concerned with overkill as I'm to busy being happy that my bonus action attack got triggered.

 

[5ekyu]

Killing enemies faster means the enemies get less turns which means you and your party take less damage. I can make a very good argument that killing faster is a greater form of damage reduction than almost anything else.

But its not like having a higher max higher dpr on a character on paper and killing faster are linked at the hip. You can do lots more dpr on one character or two on paper and lose while doing less dpr but countering a lot more incoming dmg wins the battle.

 

[Zardnaar]

Killing enemies faster means the enemies get less turns which means you and your party take less damage. I can make a very good argument that killing faster is a greater form of damage reduction than almost anything else.

This and its +1 AC vs +10 damage per attack. Thereis no defensive feat at as good at defending as the -5/+10 ones are at attacking.

 

[Ashrym]

This and its +1 AC vs +10 damage per attack. Thereis no defensive feat at as good at defending as the -5/+10 ones are at attacking.

A shield is +2 AC, not +1. It would also be facetious to acknowledge fighting style going with GWM or SS but not S&B, or acknowledging various bonuses to hit but not various bonuses to defense in comparison (like bardic inspiration dice or bane vs bless or disadvantage on incoming attacks). Shield master is a good feat.

Damage bonuses are multiplied out or restricted by number of attacks. Defensive bonuses are multiplied out or restricted by number of attackers. The number of attackers can easily bring defensive bonuses into play more often than offensive.

Defensive builds might (edit: not) be as sexy as MOAR DAMAGE but I think there is a solid argument to be made for their value. One solid defensive build blocking a choke point can save on damage to the entire party.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Killing enemies faster means the enemies get less turns which means you and your party take less damage. I can make a very good argument that killing faster is a greater form of damage reduction than almost anything else.

Not without making unfounded assumptions about the nature of your opponents. There are simply too many variables involved. Even if you're fighting HP16 orcs, and this feat is the difference between killing an orc in one attack and killing an orc in three attacks, the value of a +1 bonus to AC scales with the number of enemies you're fighting.

Specific cases may favor offense more frequently than defense, under many typical conditions, but the general point does not stand.

 

[BookBarbarian]

A shield is +2 AC, not +1. It would also be facetious to acknowledge fighting style going with GWM or SS but not S&B, or acknowledging various bonuses to hit but not various bonuses to defense in comparison (like bardic inspiration dice or bane vs bless or disadvantage on incoming attacks). Shield master is a good feat.

Damage bonuses are multiplied our or restricted by number of attacks. Defensive bonuses are multiplied out or restricted by number of attackers. The number of attackers can easily bring defensive bonuses into play more often than offensive.

Defensive builds might be as sexy as MOAR DAMAGE but I think there is a solid argument to be made for their value. One solid defensive build blocking a choke point can save on damage to the entire party.

I love me some +1 AC. I'll take Defense Fighting style over GWF on a 2-handed fighter every time.

Edit: However it does seem like the defensive feats like Heavy Armor Master, Tough etc aren't quite as impactful as GWM/SS.

 

[Ashrym]

Edit: However it does seem like the defensive feats like Heavy Armor Master, Tough etc aren't quite as impactful as GWM/SS.

"seem" is the operative word here. Big numbers are more prominent in a person's mind than similar numbers more or less often. One stands out while the other requires tracking to be noticeable.

Taking no damage from an AoE because of shield master is rather noticeable, however. ;-)

 

[FrogReaver]

Overkill is pretty much never part of the theoretical discussions because it's too complex to figure out.

Just like there'a always the assumption that GWM will get buffs or advantage that somehow are never applied to the other fighting styles. Or that maybe, just maybe, chasing after DPR doesn't really matter all that much to some people.

Overkill isn't too complex. It's just a meaningless stat 99% of he time. What matters is your chance of killin an enemy and how the damage you do impacts your future chances of killing an enemy. This is very closely related to DPR without trying to account for overkill damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not without making unfounded assumptions about the nature of your opponents. There are simply too many variables involved. Even if you're fighting HP16 orcs, and this feat is the difference between killing an orc in one attack and killing an orc in three attacks, the value of a +1 bonus to AC scales with the number of enemies you're fighting.

Specific cases may favor offense more frequently than defense, under many typical conditions, but the general point does not stand.

the totality of cases favor the offense provided by SS and GWM more than the defensive options. That isn't to say here is no case where defense can be better. It's just there's vastly more cases where offense is better than cases where defense is better

 

[FrogReaver]

A shield is +2 AC, not +1. It would also be facetious to acknowledge fighting style going with GWM or SS but not S&B, or acknowledging various bonuses to hit but not various bonuses to defense in comparison (like bardic inspiration dice or bane vs bless or disadvantage on incoming attacks). Shield master is a good feat.

Damage bonuses are multiplied out or restricted by number of attacks. Defensive bonuses are multiplied out or restricted by number of attackers. The number of attackers can easily bring defensive bonuses into play more often than offensive.

Defensive builds might (edit: not) be as sexy as MOAR DAMAGE but I think there is a solid argument to be made for their value. One solid defensive build blocking a choke point can save on damage to the entire party.

Of course there are circumstances when more defense will be better. But when the totality of cases get considered it will be found lacking. That's mostly due to the fact that the defensive abilities of a GWM fighter are still very similar to the defensive abilities of a non-GWM fighter. AC within 1-2 and hp nearly the same as well. While the offensive abilities of GWM fighter vastly outclass non-GaWM/SS fighters