D&D General What Should Today's Archetypes Be

[EzekielRaiden]

If we assume that all the things derived from D&D (like Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, etc.) remain even though they wouldn't exist without D&D having existed first...

• Humans are a no-brainer.
• I'm obviously very biased, but "dragon-person" is a fairly popular concept. It might not have cashed out in the very specific way that it did, e.g. there might be a gracile subrace (along the lines of the "spellscale") and a beefy subrace (akin to what we have now), but some kind of reptilian option seems pretty likely, and tying it to dragons is a no-brainer for popularity.
• Elves have staying power. 'nuff said.
• Instead of dwarves, we might have gotten some kind of beastkin (cat-people are pretty popular, but wolf-/dog-/fox- or ungulate-people would both be reasonable options.)
• Plant-person and construct-person might also be a thing.
• Could use a hyperintelligent race...perhaps an energy-being of some kind? Or maybe this is where the "catgirl"-type species goes, the ones that aren't really beast-like but have just a light touch of non-human characteristics.
• One of gnome, goblin, or kobold would likely also fit. Kobolds have a surprisingly ardent following online these days, and PF shows that goblins can be well-loved. Gnomes can be kind of irritating but they too have some ardent fans (and, as the ridiculous 4e gnome brouhaha shows, sometimes it doesn't matter if it's actually liked or not...)
• Changeling might fit in well, especially with the modern emphasis on the fluidity of identity and embracing LGBTQ+/nonbinary/etc. characters.
• Tieflings are probably another no-brainer, mixed demon and human blood is an ooooold trope for both East and West. Might even have aasimar, tiefling, genasi, etc. as all one single race with varying magical bloodlines attached.
• Therianthropy is a popular trope, again in both East and West, with numerous representations in film/TV and video games, so I can't imagine there not being something like that, though whether it would cash out as the Eberron "shifter" option is much more debatable.
• Half-vampire--again, beloved East and West, edgy but flexible. Hard to go wrong there.

As far as classes...

• Paladin is pretty much a shoe-in, "knight in shining armor" is too classic. This might also end up absorbing the Fighter, who could have a purely personal oath/dedication/focus--e.g. the "Oath of the Champion" or the like.
• Likewise, Bard, via things like the Final Fantasy Red Mage and the existing Rogue/Thief archetype
• Sorcerer is a maybe, quite flavorful as a concept but perhaps cashing out in a rather different way (e.g. Clive from FFXVI is arguably a Sorcerer, just one who uses heavy melee attacks augmented with magic). Probably would have Dragon, Genie, Fae, and Demon/Devil/Darkness/etc. as choices.
• Druid, leaning almost exclusively on shapeshifting with a touch of magic rather than magic with a touch of shapeshifting, specializing in specific forms for specific subclasses
• Priest rather than Cleric--Cleric was very much a product of its time, and the really narrow "Van Helsing crossed with an ordained mendicant monk" thing probably wouldn't be a core thing, more likely a "grim and gritty" subclass of Paladin. Domains would probably still exist (they're a useful way to differentiate deities)
• Monk, perhaps by a different name, very very likely--between the sustained popularity of martial arts films and things like Avatar the Last Airbender, there's plenty of appetite for such things
• Instead of Rogue, something like "Ninja" or "Assassin," treated as a broader space that can hold more things inside, e.g. fully "mystic" Ninjas to capture the Naruto fanbase, "holy" Ninjas to capture the Assassin's Creed fanbase, etc.
• Some kind of Wizard would probably still exist, but I would expect MAJOR influences from Harry Potter, Dresden Files, and EverQuest/World of Warcraft here, so they would not necessarily be the highly-complex class we know today.
• If "Fighter" remains as a distinct class, it would be more focused on particular traditions of combat rather than being ultra-generic. E.g. the Samurai Fighter, the Swordmage Fighter, the Guerilla Fighter, etc.
• Ranger probably sticks around just because "hunter" is such a classic concept and we'd still have the influence of things like Green Arrow and Legolas, but I would imagine it having less overt nature association (could possibly get absorbed by Fighter)
• Barbarian definitely either continues to exist as its own thing (influenced more by things like Dragon Ball Z, Berserk, and superhero comics), or as a Fighter subclass
• Artificer steps up to take the place of Wizard as the "big brain" class, drawing on Iron Man, Batman, MacGuyver, Sokka/the Mechanist, the Cids of every FF game, etc. Someone who uses magical tools, and magic as a tool. Alchemist, Battlesmith, Gadgeteer...all good subclasses, each with solid representation in video games and usually other media as well.

That's twelve races (counting plants and constructs separately) and twelve classes (if Fighter is neither absorbed by, nor absorbs, any other class). Seems pretty solid to me.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Kobolds have a surprisingly ardent following online these days, and PF shows that goblins can be well-loved.

they're just goofy little guys.

 

[Zardnaar]

they're just goofy little guys.

They wouldn't be popular though as D&D wouldn't exist. No dragon born either another D&Dism. No Drow either.

Half vampire or cat folk would have better chance of making it than half the phb.

Core 4 and half elves would be your go to.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

they're just goofy little guys.

Yep, that seems to be a big part of the appeal. Was talking with someone who is a self-professed kobold fan, who felt that they were a good fit for ancient Rome. I rebutted that I felt dragonborn were a better fit, in part because the Romans (despite being unbelievably horny and often..."daring," to put it very kindly) really were an inordinately serious culture, even with their jokes....a number of which we would not find even remotely funny today, especially jokes surrounding actual violence against living people.

They wouldn't be popular though as D&D wouldn't exist. No dragon born either another D&Dism. No Drow either.

Perhaps not drow, but dragonborn? Nah bro. Dragons and half-dragons are huge in Japan. They love dragons over there, and we here still love dragons quite a bit. You massively under-sell the sheer value of being able to be part-dragon. Especially in the wake of Skyrim, where you are literally a human(/elf/cat-person/lizard-person) born with a dragon's soul.

Meanwhile, dwarves and halflings are pretty much exclusively tied to Tolkien (and Norse myth for the former.) Dwarves are very rarely used in media that isn't taking directly from D&D. If it hadn't existed, dwarves would have remained well in the background.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yep, that seems to be a big part of the appeal. Was talking with someone who is a self-professed kobold fan, who felt that they were a good fit for ancient Rome. I rebutted that I felt dragonborn were a better fit, in part because the Romans (despite being unbelievably horny and often..."daring," to put it very kindly) really were an inordinately serious culture, even with their jokes....a number of which we would not find even remotely funny today, especially jokes surrounding actual violence against living people.


Perhaps not drow, but dragonborn? Nah bro. Dragons and half-dragons are huge in Japan. They love dragons over there, and we here still love dragons quite a bit. You massively under-sell the sheer value of being able to be part-dragon. Especially in the wake of Skyrim, where you are literally a human(/elf/cat-person/lizard-person) born with a dragon's soul.

Meanwhile, dwarves and halflings are pretty much exclusively tied to Tolkien (and Norse myth for the former.) Dwarves are very rarely used in media that isn't taking directly from D&D. If it hadn't existed, dwarves would have remained well in the background.

I assume Dwarves would still get in as the Tolkien movies would still exist.

Japan stuff idk.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Yep, that seems to be a big part of the appeal. Was talking with someone who is a self-professed kobold fan, who felt that they were a good fit for ancient Rome. I rebutted that I felt dragonborn were a better fit, in part because the Romans (despite being unbelievably horny and often..."daring," to put it very kindly) really were an inordinately serious culture, even with their jokes....a number of which we would not find even remotely funny today, especially jokes surrounding actual violence against living people.

to be fair, i'd fully expect kobolds to make jokes involving actual violence against living people. i'm baffled at the idea of kobolds as ancient rome, though, and i'd certainly agree dragonborn fit better. the only connection i can even think of is that kobolds are generally depicted as surprisingly good engineers, but that is...absolutely not the first thing i think when i think ancient rome. that would be militarism, imperialism, and conquest culture. that screams dragonborn or hobgoblin to me.

 

[Zardnaar]

to be fair, i'd fully expect kobolds to make jokes involving actual violence against living people. i'm baffled at the idea of kobolds as ancient rome, though, and i'd certainly agree dragonborn fit better. the only connection i can even think of is that kobolds are generally depicted as surprisingly good engineers, but that is...absolutely not the first thing i think when i think ancient rome. that would be militarism, imperialism, and conquest culture. that screams dragonborn or hobgoblin to me.

Same in my head canon Dragonborn are more Roman like. Hobgoblins are your elite humanoids as well.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I assume Dwarves would still get in as the Tolkien movies would still exist.

Japan stuff idk.

Perhaps they would; perhaps they wouldn't.

Also, the dragon stuff isn't exclusive to Japan. You have Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern, you have Naomi Novik's Temeraire, you have Christopher Paolini's Eragon, and other stories directly centered on connections between dragons and humans. Skyrim, as noted. The Dragon Prince is a Western thing, not Japanese; none of these directly have dragon-people, but they have dragons who are fully people themselves, showing a Western appetite. Voyage of the Dawn Treader has the whole Fafnir-inspired transformation of Eustace. And I'm pretty sure I've talked your ear off about dragons, half-dragons, and dragon-blooded characters/lineages in Greek mythology as well.

There's plenty of reason for it and, as I said, dragons sell. There's a reason the game is named "Dungeons and Dragons." There's a reason TVTropes has a page called, "Instant Awesome, Just Add Dragons," and another called "Crystal Dragon Jesus," and why the villainous right-hand is called "The Dragon," etc.

If you're looking for part-human, part-mythic options to provide, "dragon-person" or "human(oid) with a connection to dragons" is wildly precedented, East and West. And reptile-person is, likewise, well-attested in both games and media, often getting either the Vulcan-style "cold logic devoid of emotion" treatment, or the Klingon-type "proud warrior race" approach. (Rarely both--cold emotionlessness conflicts with the rowdy behavior of the typical "proud warrior race" type.)

 

[Zardnaar]

Perhaps they would; perhaps they wouldn't.

Also, the dragon stuff isn't exclusive to Japan. You have Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern, you have Naomi Novik's Temeraire, you have Christopher Paolini's Eragon, and other stories directly centered on connections between dragons and humans. Skyrim, as noted. The Dragon Prince is a Western thing, not Japanese; none of these directly have dragon-people, but they have dragons who are fully people themselves, showing a Western appetite. Voyage of the Dawn Treader has the whole Fafnir-inspired transformation of Eustace. And I'm pretty sure I've talked your ear off about dragons, half-dragons, and dragon-blooded characters/lineages in Greek mythology as well.

There's plenty of reason for it and, as I said, dragons sell. There's a reason the game is named "Dungeons and Dragons." There's a reason TVTropes has a page called, "Instant Awesome, Just Add Dragons," and another called "Crystal Dragon Jesus," and why the villainous right-hand is called "The Dragon," etc.

If you're looking for part-human, part-mythic options to provide, "dragon-person" or "human(oid) with a connection to dragons" is wildly precedented, East and West. And reptile-person is, likewise, well-attested in both games and media, often getting either the Vulcan-style "cold logic devoid of emotion" treatment, or the Klingon-type "proud warrior race" approach. (Rarely both--cold emotionlessness conflicts with the rowdy behavior of the typical "proud warrior race" type.)

Dragons definitely make it in.

Dragonmen I don't recall to much non D&D fantasy with them.
None of the big current fantasy shows have them, no big fantasy movie has them.

Snake and Lizard folk seem more common perhaps?

 

[CreamCloud0]

this isn't really a class or species archetype but i think magic would be alot different, slots and vancian casting would be out most likely replaced by MP and more shorter but individually themed spell lists (a water mage with hydro-whip, ice wall, bubble jet, tidal wave, aqua guard and lifewater), or a way to build your own spells from templates to fit your theme, (you wouldn't have like 7 different 'wall of X' spells you;d have 1 or 2 'magic wall' base spells which could then be modified with traits like stone, fire, maneuverable, spiked)