W'rkncacnter
Hero
moreover i think resources would be much more encounter based then attrition based.
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D&D General What Should Today's Archetypes Be
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Aldarc
Legend
I don't know what the archetypes would be, and it depends on how exhaustive one wants to be, but I don't think that 5e D&D's Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Warlock, or Barbarian would make the cut. I understand the idea that magic can come from different sources, but I don't really think that this is genuinely enough of a distinction with a difference to warrant these classes to exist in their own right as they do in 5e. There is no way on Earth, IMHO, that people would come to these classes as they are without the prior editions behind them. These distinctions are rarely (and I am being quite generous with "rarely" here) replicated in TTRPGs outside of D&D, its next of kin, and its associated heartbreakers.
And the Barbarian/Berserker is more often then not a Warrior subclass, specialization, or subset than its own class in a lot of video games and other media. FWIW, it's pretty common for Warriors to use a Rage, Fury, or Adrenaline mechanic in MMORPGs or other class-based games.
And the Barbarian/Berserker is more often then not a Warrior subclass, specialization, or subset than its own class in a lot of video games and other media. FWIW, it's pretty common for Warriors to use a Rage, Fury, or Adrenaline mechanic in MMORPGs or other class-based games.
I think 4E essentials probably did it best.
You could have your Harry Potter or Harry Dresden Mage. who can spam Cantrips and do 2-5 Big spells between short rests.
Then you have your Doctor Strange and Scarlet Witch who also spams Cantrips or can do one CRAZY THING per scene with averages to 2-5 per long rest.
MP is a killer as you quickly end up with the K problem. And Classic slots just doesn't match anything in media.
Neonchameleon
Legend
Looking at the racial list my only disagreement is that we'd also have a muscular "very humanoid" race (i.e. no lycanthropy, plants, or constructs) - goliaths or orcs. This niche is part of what dwarfs have tried to cover historically.
Only one disagreement (although I'm pretty sure fighter continues to exist). And that's that I think warlock would remain at the top table. Agreed that bard and ninja would between them split the rogue class.
One of the things often not spoken is that the fantasy Archetypes are often results of the limitations of mechanics in universe and in game.
The Berserker, Monk, and Fighter are different classes and different universe groupings because A single Character cannot have Rage, Martial Arts, and whatever the Fighter class has. And the Captain/Warlord mental archetype, physical Fighter/Warrior archetypes, and combo Paladin/Ranger split character foci.
The shirtless Barbarian and armored Knight fight different styles.
Your Khal Drogo and Norah Mormont fight differently in the books and would inhabit different Archetypes.
It's almost like
The Berserker, Monk, and Fighter are different classes and different universe groupings because A single Character cannot have Rage, Martial Arts, and whatever the Fighter class has. And the Captain/Warlord mental archetype, physical Fighter/Warrior archetypes, and combo Paladin/Ranger split character foci.
The shirtless Barbarian and armored Knight fight different styles.
Your Khal Drogo and Norah Mormont fight differently in the books and would inhabit different Archetypes.
It's almost like
- Heavy Armor Warrior
- Medium Armor Warrior
- Light Armor Warrior
- No Armor Warrior
Aldarc
Legend
...in a setting that focuses mostly on mundane knights and warriors where one might want to differentiate better between them. But again, please notice that your generalization does not necessarily hold true when it comes to MMORPGs or video games, wherein the Berserker/Barbarian is sometimes just a Warrior.#
For example, here is the class page for the Warrior in Warcraft. It has three specializations - Protection, Arms, and Fury - which basically fulfill the role of the knight, the weaponmaster, and the barbarian.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I may have my various beefs with the design of Essentials, but I will never disparage the 4e Essentials Sorcerer subclass, the Elementalist.
It was the first time D&D has ever truly offered a simple "mage" character. (No, the 3e Warlock does not count, it required far too much optimization.) And it actually did it pretty well! Plus, being Cha/Con meant you'd have lots of extra HP and surges, so you'd be cushioned against mistakes as well, and equipped for doing social things if it struck your fancy. Design that actually reflects the systemic purpose of the class and the thematics.
I'm unfamiliar with the "K problem," and I fear Google has been unhelpful (unless this is in fact the "k-server" problem from algorithm design?)
Yeah, some kind of goliath/orc/etc. makes sense. Perhaps save plant-people for a supplement--they're not unheard-of (popular in video games, for instance), but might not quite cross the threshold of "iconic."
I waffled a lot on including Warlock. It is an incredibly thematic concept, that I can't deny. But perhaps thirteen classes isn't a bad thing, especially if we're trimming down the spell list somewhat (since we won't be accruing all the ridiculous cruft in said list.)
CreamCloud0
One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
if made today the artificer/engineer would be a much more supported class archetype, also, a minimech class
deganawida
Legend
I think that, if one were to do this thought experiment properly, one would need to remove all those things which were were heavily influenced by Dungeons & Dragons.
I would therefore put most medieval Western fantasy literature post-Belgariad (and possibly earlier, though the Belgariad shows fewer D&D influences than the Elenium) out. Following this line of thought, I do not know if Dresden would have been made, but it is possible. Harry Potter is independent of D&D, so it would still exist. Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell would still exist, as would any other fairy-inspired story. Pratchett would still exist, as his Discworld started as a parody of the old S&S stories. Alvin Maker would probably still exist.
For video games, while Gauntlet is obviously mappable to D&D, Dragon’s Lair, King’s Quest, and the original The Legend of Zelda are not. Unfortunately, most video games set in fantasy worlds are highly influenced by D&D and its tropes, so it would be much more difficult to find games which work.
For cartoons, every 70s and 80s fantasy cartoon, apart from D&D, would be kept. Your Thundarr, He-Man, Galtar, and Thundercats would have large influences. Dark Water could stay. Avatar would definitely be kept.
For cinema, more is available. Of course, Star Wars would have a major impact. Flash Gordon would be bigger in impact, as would movies like Outlander, The Thirteenth Warrior, Reign of Fire, Willow, Conan (naturally), Hercules, Neverending Story, and so on.
In anime, a good portion of the instantly-recognizable series, including my beloved Lodoss, would never have come to be. However, DBZ, JoJo, One Piece, Fairy Tail, would still have come about, as they pull from different mythical sources. You’d also see influence from various sci-fi properties like Harlock, Voltron, Cowboy Bebop, Space Dandy, and so on. FMA, using an alternate history of sorts with very specific magic, would be good.
So, what would a world like that leave us with?
First, we would likely see a bigger gap between fairy stories and what fantasy would have become.
One the on hand, you would have your fairy tales and medieval romance, where people would continue to take the ideas of the intersection of the mortal and immortal worlds, and how that influences mortal lives. Expect to see more RPGs and video games that have more in common with the sensibilities of Gaiman, and it would be very popular.
On the other hand, you would have the alternate equivalent of fantasy, which would be far more influenced by, and containing more of, sci-fi. There would be more machines, more robots, and more planets. Think of this as more cosmic. It would be, in effect, more science fantasy, though wider, deeper, and more varied than in our world.
Well, a good number of these properties have a preponderance of fighting types, whether mundane or with some supernatural elements. Give the relative lack of organized military in the vein of Napoleonic or before armies, the divisions amongst various fighter types would be far less on what type of unit they fought with, and more with where they fell in the mundane-mystical spectrum. In other words, our understanding of classes would be right out, as that’s derived from wargaming.
Magic is typically soft, with the idea of casting a spell just being the act of using magic, and the effect depending upon desire; actual hard magic would be rare. There would likely be something similar to 4e/5e’s ritual magic, as you will often find in the influences mentioned above the need for the big wizard or sorcerer to have to use a ritual that can take days to cast.
You’d see more characters with some level of magic, even if it’s just a knack that’s highly specific.
I will reiterate that I believe that, without D&D being created the way that it was, there would be no classes. I also do not believe that there would as big a mundane/mystical divide.
What we now
Now, the most unpopular part of this thought experiment? I do not believe, given the sources which would still have been made in this alternate timeline, that there would have been any standard races but human. Each game system or campaign setting would include its own various races and species, and many of these would be aliens.
So, what would this new world of D&D look like? Classless, skill-based, with far more varied and present magic, weird aliens, strange technology, and big epic stories. Heck, it probably would be something like Exalted or other WoD games, as far as builds.
it’s interesting how this world would have turned out. D&D has had an outsized influence on the development of Western fantasy, and how we view it. Without it, I seriously doubt that fairy tales and medieval romance would have merged so strongly with weird fiction and sci-fi, and thereby creating a good bit of the cognitive dissonance that D&D fans have experienced over the last five decades.
I would therefore put most medieval Western fantasy literature post-Belgariad (and possibly earlier, though the Belgariad shows fewer D&D influences than the Elenium) out. Following this line of thought, I do not know if Dresden would have been made, but it is possible. Harry Potter is independent of D&D, so it would still exist. Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell would still exist, as would any other fairy-inspired story. Pratchett would still exist, as his Discworld started as a parody of the old S&S stories. Alvin Maker would probably still exist.
For video games, while Gauntlet is obviously mappable to D&D, Dragon’s Lair, King’s Quest, and the original The Legend of Zelda are not. Unfortunately, most video games set in fantasy worlds are highly influenced by D&D and its tropes, so it would be much more difficult to find games which work.
For cartoons, every 70s and 80s fantasy cartoon, apart from D&D, would be kept. Your Thundarr, He-Man, Galtar, and Thundercats would have large influences. Dark Water could stay. Avatar would definitely be kept.
For cinema, more is available. Of course, Star Wars would have a major impact. Flash Gordon would be bigger in impact, as would movies like Outlander, The Thirteenth Warrior, Reign of Fire, Willow, Conan (naturally), Hercules, Neverending Story, and so on.
In anime, a good portion of the instantly-recognizable series, including my beloved Lodoss, would never have come to be. However, DBZ, JoJo, One Piece, Fairy Tail, would still have come about, as they pull from different mythical sources. You’d also see influence from various sci-fi properties like Harlock, Voltron, Cowboy Bebop, Space Dandy, and so on. FMA, using an alternate history of sorts with very specific magic, would be good.
So, what would a world like that leave us with?
First, we would likely see a bigger gap between fairy stories and what fantasy would have become.
One the on hand, you would have your fairy tales and medieval romance, where people would continue to take the ideas of the intersection of the mortal and immortal worlds, and how that influences mortal lives. Expect to see more RPGs and video games that have more in common with the sensibilities of Gaiman, and it would be very popular.
On the other hand, you would have the alternate equivalent of fantasy, which would be far more influenced by, and containing more of, sci-fi. There would be more machines, more robots, and more planets. Think of this as more cosmic. It would be, in effect, more science fantasy, though wider, deeper, and more varied than in our world.
Well, a good number of these properties have a preponderance of fighting types, whether mundane or with some supernatural elements. Give the relative lack of organized military in the vein of Napoleonic or before armies, the divisions amongst various fighter types would be far less on what type of unit they fought with, and more with where they fell in the mundane-mystical spectrum. In other words, our understanding of classes would be right out, as that’s derived from wargaming.
Magic is typically soft, with the idea of casting a spell just being the act of using magic, and the effect depending upon desire; actual hard magic would be rare. There would likely be something similar to 4e/5e’s ritual magic, as you will often find in the influences mentioned above the need for the big wizard or sorcerer to have to use a ritual that can take days to cast.
You’d see more characters with some level of magic, even if it’s just a knack that’s highly specific.
I will reiterate that I believe that, without D&D being created the way that it was, there would be no classes. I also do not believe that there would as big a mundane/mystical divide.
What we now
Now, the most unpopular part of this thought experiment? I do not believe, given the sources which would still have been made in this alternate timeline, that there would have been any standard races but human. Each game system or campaign setting would include its own various races and species, and many of these would be aliens.
So, what would this new world of D&D look like? Classless, skill-based, with far more varied and present magic, weird aliens, strange technology, and big epic stories. Heck, it probably would be something like Exalted or other WoD games, as far as builds.
it’s interesting how this world would have turned out. D&D has had an outsized influence on the development of Western fantasy, and how we view it. Without it, I seriously doubt that fairy tales and medieval romance would have merged so strongly with weird fiction and sci-fi, and thereby creating a good bit of the cognitive dissonance that D&D fans have experienced over the last five decades.
