What should WOTC do about Golden Wyvern Adept? (Keep Friendly)

[Mr Jack]

I didn't answer the poll because I think we need to wait and see where and how it appears in the book.

I strongly suspect we'll find the Goldern Wyvern stuff introduced in the DMG as a worked example of doing magical traditions for your own world. In which case I have no problem with it.

If that's not the case, I don't want to see the game peppered with 'Goldern Wyvern Adept' style feats and so forth, but if it turns out there's only a few I'd still have no problem with it. I honestly don't see it as any more intrusive that having Pelor, St. Cuthbert et al or Mordekainen's Disjunction or The Hand of Vecna in the core rules.

Wait 'til we've had a chance to see the rules and we'll see how it fits in.

 

[Mirtek]

I can't understand what this is all about. Really, I just can't.

AFAIR I have never ever used the name of one of my charactes feats ingame. None of my characters have ever said "I have weapon focus" or "I have spell penetration" or "I have great cleave"

So why does it matter how the feat is called? it's name will never be mentioned ingame.

 

[Bishmon]

To be totally honest, when the Golden Wyvern adept thing broke, which I believe was over a month ago, I was kind of like, "Hey, something that sounds like you'd have found it in real history. Cool," and I felt that the people who were complaining about it sounding like "anime" or "MMO" were simply people who had never been exposed to actual history before and were dealing from ignorance, and reacted much the same way that most people react to something they don't understand. That is, giving it a label and shoving it into a little cubbyhole in their mind where they don't actually have to examine it.

...

We've reached stage two because we're over a month in and people are still complaining about stuff that has no actual basis in fact. We're also reaching a state of obsessive-compulsion, where people are complaining with increasing vehemence about something that is at worst neutral in value. I personally think that Rich Baker backing off so precipitously from Dragon's Tail Cut was actually one of the worst things he could have done, because he inadvertently gave the internet fanboy community, who collectively (and I include myself in this) has the worst entitlement complex imaginable, the idea that they could change the design of 4th Edition if they complained loudly enough.

To wrap my thoughts up and move on, I think people need to start getting over themselves and realize that their personal preferences don't reflect the hobby as a whole.

Well there goes the whole keeping it friendly thing.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I can't understand what this is all about. Really, I just can't.

AFAIR I have never ever used the name of one of my charactes feats ingame. None of my characters have ever said "I have weapon focus" or "I have spell penetration" or "I have great cleave"

So why does it matter how the feat is called? it's name will never be mentioned ingame.

As I mentioned above, they aren't mentioned in game, so why not make them more usefully descriptive, or at least short to write down?

 

[Oldtimer]

So why does it matter how the feat is called? it's name will never be mentioned ingame.

And that is exactly what the fuss is all about.

Since it's not used in-game, the name should be utilitarian and descriptive rather than flavourful. The name of a pure game mechanic has no need for flavour, but every need for description and mnemonic.

There could be a good mnemonic behind the name as is, but so far the only connection has been to the wizard traditions, i.e. flavour.

That's why it matters - at least to me.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

Well there goes the whole keeping it friendly thing.

If I was being hostile you'd know. Honesty takes precedence.

 

[am181d]

I think the bottom line on this discussion is "This isn't the optimal place to inject flavor text, as it makes it harder to keep track of what the feat does." The more of these feats WotC creates, the harder it will be to keep them all straight.

If their goal is really to inject more flavor into the game, it would be better to organize feat descriptions like this:

SPELL SHAPER
In the ancient monasteries of the Golden Wyvern order, adepts train to sculpt the effects of their spells, just as sculptors shape clay.
TIER: Paragon
EFFECT: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.

or

SPELL SHAPER
TIER: Paragon
EFFECT: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.
SETTINGS: In some lands, spellcasters earn this feat by becoming adepts of the Golden Wyvern order.

(Obviously, the flavor text here is just a placeholder.)

These options keep the names of the feats "purpose-centric" for easy reference and memorization. It also allows DMs to easily cut flavor if it's not appropriate for their campaigns.

 

[Bishmon]

If I was being hostile you'd know. Honesty takes precedence.

Honesty usually implies dealing with facts. You basically said that those with a different opinion than yours are dealing in ignorance, obsessive-compulsive, and are hung up on themselves. Those aren't facts. That's just derisive opinion cloaked as honesty in order to avoid accountability for your approach to the discussion.

Just tone it down a bit. Your post is exactly how flame wars get going.

 

[Rel]

Honesty takes precedence.

NO, ACTUALLY IT DOESN'T.

I say that in all caps not because I'm screaming, but because it is an important thing that it is obvious that many don't seem to understand here.

At least once a week we get some yahoo that sends one of us moderators an e-mail, after they've been banned or reprimanded, about how they were "Only speaking the TRUTH!" It's become so common that we even have a term for it: "TEH TROOF! defense".

If you want words to live by it should be these: "Civility takes precedence."

This is a game. A hobby. A pastime that we enjoy. It should be fun.

There is no point that you need to make that is so important that it can't be done in a manner that is polite and friendly. Remember that each and every time you click the Submit Reply button and this board of ours will be a better, more interesting, more productive place.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

Honesty usually implies dealing with facts. You basically said that those with a different opinion than yours are dealing in ignorance, obsessive-compulsive, and are hung up on themselves. Those aren't facts. That's just derisive opinion cloaked as honesty in order to avoid accountability for your approach to the discussion.

Just tone it down a bit. Your post is exactly how flame wars get going.

Up to the present moment, the attitude of the I Hate Golden Wyvern club has been, essentially, that they're Right, and that anybody who views the idea of a core feat with a name that doesn't sound clinically detached (i.e. boring) either neutrally or with interest is Wrong. And they've said it umpteen different times in umpteen different threads and tried to mash into the carpet anybody who disagrees with them, so suddenly expressing shock and dismay at my relatively mild expression of irritation with the whole damned mess is more than a little dishonest.

My perception, and probably the perception of more than a few others, is that "keep friendly" in the context of this thread - and indeed, in the context of MOST threads on contentious topics on the internet - means "agree with me."