What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?

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hawkeyefan

Legend
But his online behaviour was a known factor years ago. I knew about it back when the PHB was released (which was when I first learned of the allegations against him). No new facts have come to light with the most recent allegations. It's just a different person making the same claims about what he has done against them. Either he was guilty all along and the professional RPG community knew (or should have known. Given how widespread the allegations against Zak S have been, it's quite hard for them to claim they didn't know) or they genuinely believed they weren't true, in which case they're acting very quickly against someone who they had previously investigated and believed to be innocent. What new evidence has come to light that made everyone suddenly change their mind? AFAIK none.

I think you’re making a binary situation where that’s not really how things work. There have been several more years of toxic online behavior sine the earlier allegations. And now there are MORE allegations. I think it’s reasonable for more allegations to become a bigger deal. Especially combined with 5 more years of Zak pissing industry folks off and 5 more years of the hobby expanding and reaching new people and 5 more years of social progress.

Conditions were different this time around, so the result will be different.
 

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Ratskinner

Adventurer
I'd be concerned if my place of employment fired someone because their girlfriend/boyfriend stood at the corner of a shopping centre and yelled about abuse the person had done to them. I'm not sure what American law or attitude is towards this though. You lot have some very.... "interesting" ideas and laws when it comes to employment and firing people without cause.

Even weirder is how much they vary from state to state. However, since at least the 80's, Americans have increasingly become enamored of the idea that our poor beleaguered corporations can't really do anything wrong and after all won't the market sort it out in the end. However, I was specifically talking about abuses that take place within the workplace. Its quite unusual for a person to get in trouble at work for a situation such as you are describing, to my knowledge. Significantly, it can vary quite a bit from corporations that generally ignore all accusations to those that take them very seriously. That said, if your job is particularly public (news anchor, director, etc.) that can change, if your reputation becomes a liability. Also, for an rpg industry person, a convention is "work", IMO.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Are we moving from defending Zak to pointing out the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those that are now so anxious to show they are condemning him?

I might be aboard such an argument depending on how it is made or meant, but I don't imagine that it would do any good to make it here. Make it on a blog post if you like on your own forum. Don't borrow someone's soap box to do it. I don't suggest that as any sort of moral obligation on your part, but as a practical matter.
 

John Lynch2

First Post
I think you’re making a binary situation where that’s not really how things work. There have been several more years of toxic online behavior sine the earlier allegations. And now there are MORE allegations. I think it’s reasonable for more allegations to become a bigger deal. Especially combined with 5 more years of Zak pissing industry folks off and 5 more years of the hobby expanding and reaching new people and 5 more years of social progress.

Conditions were different this time around, so the result will be different.
So does the industry have a threshold on when it takes action? Is 1 allegation sufficient? 5? 20? Because I doubt very many people were surprised by this recent news. Definitely sadenned. But unfortunately not surprised. How many other professionals have met this threshold but are simply flying under the radar until the next lot of bad press swings their way? Because bad press seems to be the only thing to galvanise WotC and OneBookshelf into action thus far.

Also, for an rpg industry person, a convention is "work", IMO.
Abuses that occur at work are certainly something that an employer should investigate and action as appropriate (I also believe most work places would refer the matter to police wherever they can. Something I doubt WotC or OneBookshelf are doing. So trying to describe this as a "work place incident" isn't the most helpful for the discussion).

But if we are going down that road: What is the industry doing in regards to Bill Webb? From what I read at Enworld that had witnesses! Has he been at a PaizoCon since the allegations came to light? Will his work be removed from OneBookshelf? If not, what's the threshold/policy? Are people comfortable with that threshold/policy?
 

John Lynch2

First Post
Are we moving from defending Zak to pointing out the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those that are now so anxious to show they are condemning him?

I might be aboard such an argument depending on how it is made or meant, but I don't imagine that it would do any good to make it here. Make it on a blog post if you like on your own forum. Don't borrow someone's soap box to do it. I don't suggest that as any sort of moral obligation on your part, but as a practical matter.
I'm not defending him. I'm arguing that if these organisations NOW believe the claims against Zak S, why didn't they before? The original title of this thread was much more inflammatory towards WotC but I toned it down.

As for telling me to leave this forum: That's not especially inclusive. If Morrus or his mods want me to leave, they have the power to do so and they've shown they will not hold back in doing so.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Just a quick hit because I’m busy (in no particular order):

1) many states do not require a “cause” for firing unless a contractual provision states otherwise. However, if a reason is given that is illegal (“X is being fired because X is Jewish”) or there exists evidence that an illegal purpose was used, the employer can still get nuked in court.

So, the long & short of it is this: employers need not wait for a court case to cut ties with an employee who has exposed them to unfavorable publicity.

2) What you may have missed is not a change in Z’s behavior, but a recent and fairly sweeping lowering of the tolerance level in American society for some of the behavior alleged. And in the light of actual crime stats, odds are extremely good that Z is guilty of more than one act of which he has been accused.

3) people who become notorious for all kinds of reasons get honors & credits rescinded all the time, going back eons. Even happened to an Egyptian Pharaoh shortly after his death. I can think of a Nobel prize winner (racist), a reknown outdoorsman (serial killer), athletes (cheaters & gamblers) and others who have been booted from organizations and stripped of all kinds of accolades and privileges unrelated to their offenses.
 
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Ratskinner

Adventurer
But his behaviour isn't new nor is it surprising.

Also: choosing not to work with someone is one thing. But should these organisations remove all mention of their previous association? Either Zak S deserved to be in the credits because of the work he performed for WotC or he didn't. It'd be like removing Kevin Spacey from the credits of all movies he's ever appeared in.

Well, it wouldn't for a variety reasons. Two of which that spring immediately to mind are contractual agreements with the Screen Actors' Guild, and the (perhaps odd) ways that intellectual property can be owned by your employer. I know many people who can't even work on a potentially profitable project in the garage on weekends without their employer having the right to confiscate it. I don't know what contractual relationship Zak had with WotC, but I would not be surprised his contract didn't make his thought on 5e WotC property the moment he had them. (I'm not defending such nonsense, but there it seems to be the way the law works.)

Either Zak S was a known abuser and the industry has done nothing. Or a facebook post accompanied by no evidence is all that's required to have someone removed from the biggest seller of online RPG products. Either way I think OneBookshelf and WotC need to set some guidelines as to who they will and won't do business with and why they're only setting those guidelines now. Or else we're going to have innocent people thrown out of the industry at the whims of these organisations.

hmmm...I think you're leaving out the possibility of Zak being an "unknown abuser". That is, it seems that a lot of folks who knew him (I don't, I'm only going by the posts I've seen) didn't have a high opinion of his personality. So, they might think something along the lines of "Well, that guy is a jerk, but he seems to do good work (or has a big following, or whatever), and I don't really know that he's done anything all that terrible." That is, give him the benefit of the doubt (perhaps this is another odd American cultural trait). At least until something happens that either makes it obvious that he is as terrible as you suspected or that further association with him will damage your brand (regardless of your belief in the accusations).*

The only problem with those guidelines your suggesting is that its like asking someone if they are Chaotic Evil. "Are you a rapist?" - "No I was acquitted on all 27 charges." Alternatively, you could have some kind of "reputation protection" clause, like the NFL and NASCAR have for their participants. However, those have their own foibles, because reputation is a rather curious beast and subject to some rather fickle interpretation. (The NFL, in particular is noted for its rather odd and inconsistent interpretations of what will and will not harm its reputation.)


*Which is decidedly not to say that I think a corporation wouldn't happily let a vile person make them money until it hurts their reputation somehow, and then disingenuously claim ignorance. I would be surprised if that isn't the norm, in fact. I just think its not quite as binary as you're putting it.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Abuses that occur at work are certainly something that an employer should investigate and action as appropriate (I also believe most work places would refer the matter to police wherever they can. Something I doubt WotC or OneBookshelf are doing. So trying to describe this as a "work place incident" isn't the most helpful for the discussion).

I'm not. If you follow the chain back, you'll note that the comment that got me into this discussion was a general comment about responses to abuse allegations, not this one in particular. I don't have any statistics at hand, but my work puts me in contact with many corporations and gov't agencies. I very much doubt that workplaces routinely refer such matters to the police, especially if there is any chance that they can get away with minimal negative attention and have one of the people (accuser or abuser) quietly leave.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
But if we are going down that road: What is the industry doing in regards to Bill Webb? From what I read at Enworld that had witnesses! Has he been at a PaizoCon since the allegations came to light? Will his work be removed from OneBookshelf? If not, what's the threshold/policy? Are people comfortable with that threshold/policy?

Regarding Bill Webb, I know of two local but well-regarded conventions that have recinded “guest of honor”-type designations from him. And I expect convention organizers will continue to be pressured to be more circumspect about such honors.
 

Ghostwind

First Post
I will lay it out to in this manner. Zak had a long history of abusive and bullying behaviors that included gaslighting others (even fellow industry professionals). The recent revelations were too detailed and descriptive, not to mention consistent of someone who regularly engages in physical and mentally abusive behavior. The fact that multiple woman corroborated this story added weight to the likelihood of truth. Private businesses (and individuals behind them) are now making public statements that they choose to believe the ladies and are therefore severing all ties with Zak.

Don’t like it? Too bad. Don’t support those those companies. I doubt they will miss you.
 

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