What to do when one PC is *far* weaker than rest of party

It can be very tricky to handle this, but I find it's easy enough to take it easy on the weaker PC - the monster will tend to go after the bigger threats, though one mustn't ignore the weaker PC entirely. The only real sticker are those area of effect attacks.

Putting some magic items out there for the weaker PC will also help.

Now, I find it much more disruptive to have one PC that's more powerful than everyone else. Increasing the difficulty just makes things worse for the rest of the group. You can separate the tough PC and have them face a CR-appropriate beast solo, but you can only do that so many times before it gets old and predictable.

Maybe put fewer magical items out there that the uber-PC can use and eventually the rest of the group will even out with them?

I do agree with Celebrim on that merits minimizing optional material. After a certain point, it becomes all too easy to break and take advantage of the interactions and poorly-planned features.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
First off, the party listed is 6 players - 3 weapon-users, bomb thrower, cleric, and bard.

Agreed. A bard could be functional in this party.

The only real problem is the vulnerability of the Bard and I think that's more a problem with stat allocation. If it is point buy, she should have at least a 12 Con and say a 14 Dex.

That's the problem with THIS bard, and not the problem with Bards generally. The problem with Bards generally is exactly what I said - they are a support class whose value depends on the number of allies that they have receiving support.

But instead of taking Mirror Image, she should just cast Glitterdust - blind targets are effectively not going to be hitting all that well.

Glitterdust can be quite effective and is possibly even OP, but it presumes that the Will save will be failed. Eventually that will save isn't failed, and you die. Buffs and debuffs both have a place in your arsenal.

But in any case, 3 allies is fine. People tend to completely underestimate the value of a +X to hit/damage because for the most part, the big problem is getting allies to remember to include the numbers always.

I don't underestimate or over estimate anything. I count. I'm not sure what tables you play at, but at mine bonuses are horded and the accounting for them borders on tedious. A bonus of +2 to hit and damage is effective. But it has to be more effective than a Sorcerer throwing scorching rays and fireballs, or a Barbarian swinging a two handed sword, or a Druid creating a whole mini-party to fight for him before you get too excited about it. If the party lands 5 weapon attacks in a round, then that's 10 points of damage contributed by the Bard. Yay! The Bard also will convert about 1 in 10 swings from misses to hits, the utility of which depends on how hard the other players hit. Also good. But is it better than what a similar level character would be doing on their own?

With only 1 or 2 allies, it's clear the Bard is subpar in a combat role because the buffs just don't enhance their allies enough to make up for their decreased personal combat contribution. Even 3 allies is marginal. Four is good. Five or more is better. And that's not even getting into the problem of effectiveness decaying exponentially once allies start dropping. But sure, if we already have 7 PCs and are adding an 8th, go for a bard! And that's not to get into the synergy between a summoner build and a Bard.

How bad players play compared to a skilled player shouldn't be the metric. The metric should be "Count the actual amount of damage I did this round. Subtract from that the amount of damage I could have done as say a flanking rouge, a tripping fighter, a raging barbarian or throwing spells every round with a full caster with Craft Wand. Is the total positive?" It's not that hard for a mid-level character to do 20 damage or more a round. It takes a lot of +2 bonuses to damage and such to make up for losing that in the Bard's slot. Wizard's and Sorcerer's can cast haste as well, have a lot more spell slots, gain access to higher level spells more quickly, and have access to much more versatile and aggressive spells. By the time the Bard is like, "I haz haste", the wizard is like "Me too. And I haz turned the Barbarian into a Stone Giant, haz cast black tentacles, and haz Wall of Fire".

Maybe it's true that part of the reason Bards have a bad reputation is poor play, poor optimization, and players forgetting to add in bonuses. But part of the reason is that they don't shine in small parties. And even if you don't agree, it's clear that they shine more in larger parties. By the time the Bard can cast haste, they are at least 7th level. If they don't have 7 allies, part of that spell's power goes wasted. Buffing three allies is good. But seven(!) buffed allies is more powerful than 3 and yields more damage per action spent. The number of allies you can effect with Bardic music is limited to what you can pack near you. The more allies you boost, the more damage that action yields, and the more powerful it is relative to other things you could have done.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
Glitterdust can be quite effective and is possibly even OP, but it presumes that the Will save will be failed. Eventually that will save isn't failed, and you die. Buffs and debuts both have a place in your arsenal.

In general, actions that involve 'please don't attack me, but feel free to attack my friends' such as Mirror Image are vastly less useful than 'hey, you, have a 50% penalty to your attack rolls against anyone + give bonuses to others to attack you' options. Especially as those blinded are a lot easier to take out or prone to take OAs to try to get to the Bard.

If the party lands 5 weapon attacks in a round, then that's 10 points of damage contributed by the Bard. Yay! The Bard also will convert about 1 in 10 swings from misses to hits, the utility of which depends on how hard the other players hit. Also good. But is it better than what a similar level character would be doing on their own?

Generally, yes. Let's just take the 10 weapon attacks as a useful # to look at. How many of those 10 attacks do you expect to land? Say 6?(given the -5/-10/-15 nature of extraBAB attacks...). So let's say there's 2 allies, so each ally is hitting 3 times out of those 10 weapon attacks. And by your number, 20 hp of damage per hit. And the Bard adds a hit for 20 points of damage.

So the allies each contribute 60 points of damage in those 10 attacks.
The Bard contributes 6*+2 = 12 + 20 for a hit or 32 hp of damage. But, let's just hand the Bard a bow, give the Bard say 2 hits, while doing 10 damage normally with those 2 hits, so 13 total. Hey, 58 damage contributed by the Bard with 2 allies. And we're assuming that the other PCs aren't doing any ranged spell attack rolls, the rest of the Bard's spell capabilities are basically worthless, and that Bard only does typically about 1/3rd the damage output on average of the other PCs(which usually isn't a great assumption)
 

Celebrim

Legend
In general, actions that involve 'please don't attack me, but feel free to attack my friends' such as Mirror Image are vastly less useful than 'hey, you, have a 50% penalty to your attack rolls against anyone + give bonuses to others to attack you' options. Especially as those blinded are a lot easier to take out or prone to take OAs to try to get to the Bard.

I have nothing against Glitterdust. Yes, debuffs do multiply in value when you have allies, but Mirror Image also steals attacks from your foe as well because each time an image is destroyed it is a wasted action. And again, your debuff has to actually work, where as Mirror Image just does.

Generally, yes. Let's just take the 10 weapon attacks as a useful # to look at. How many of those 10 attacks do you expect to land? Say 6?(given the -5/-10/-15 nature of extraBAB attacks...). So let's say there's 2 allies, so each ally is hitting 3 times out of those 10 weapon attacks. And by your number, 20 hp of damage per hit. And the Bard adds a hit for 20 points of damage.

Your math is just nuts, and so wonky I can't even follow it. Now you are the one clearly estimating.

First of all, it's very hard to get a Bard build that at mid levels hits for 20 damage a round (and to the extent you could, you could optimize another class even harder). That 20 average is for non-Bard classes with average optimization. Bards have high MAD, don't have any weapon buffs, are feat poor, and don't self-buff very powerfully. When you play Bard, you are giving up a huge amount of personal attack damage in order to share that damage with your allies. And the more allies you have, the more powerful that strategy is... which ought to be obvious to anyone without a bard chip on their shoulder. If you can show a 7th level Bard hitting for 20 damage on average each round, then there are builds for non-Bards that hit for far in excess of the 20 one can throw out there. Realistic Bards though don't hit that hard.

Exactly what 7th level party of 4 characters is generating 10 HITS a round every round sans ridiculous optimization? In general, you are dealing with 3-6 weapon attacks per round once you factor in tactical movement, charges, spell casting and so forth, of which maybe 3/4's will hit even with a +2 buff. Your buffs have to enhance those few attacks per round sufficiently to make up for your greatly diminished personal damage dealing capacity. With only a few allies, that rarely happens. I think you are trying to calculate total number of hits for the entire fight or something of the sort, and saying that a buff deals dividends from round to round. But so does just being a better fighter, as the damage from that cumulates from round to round as well.

But, let's just hand the Bard a bow, give the Bard say 2 hits, while doing 10 damage normally with those 2 hits, so 13 total.

Exactly what 7th level bard without ridiculously optimized gear is generating 10 damage per bow shot? Again, with high MAD you can't afford a lot of strength, so you are probably doing straight up weapon damage (1d6) plus some small bonus from magic and your own self buff. And with just 14 Dex (your number) and average BAB, you aren't hitting most of your shots. You'll be doing well to hit half of them. And again, if we are ridiculously optimizing the gear, we could optimize even harder for other combat classes.

Compare your bow strategy to being a flanking rouge attacking for 5d6 damage plus some bonus per attack with a better to hit bonus because less MAD and also granting allies a +2 bonus to hit. Your buff has to make up for that missing 14+ damage per round compared to the rogue. Or compare to a raging Barbarian hitting for 2d6+12 or so damage per attack with much more reliable hits (like rarely miss the first attack, and good chance of hitting the second). Or compare to the 8d6 damage the Sorcerer is doing with Scorching Ray, who can also Haste the party (and in more combats per day), and who can probably also drop Fireball when multiple targets present themselves yielding potentially 100+ damage per round. Again, showing that Haste or Glitterdust is a powerful strategy doesn't show the Bard is better than a full caster in that role, who can do the same strategy and then add his own powerful attacks on top of it. To show that the Bard is good, you have to make the case for Bardic Music, and that case depends heavily on the number of allies.

You are trying to claim that your Bard with ordinary equipment is generating on average 58 damage per round with just two allies? I'm not the one wildly estimating things here.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Again, the point isn't about "is the bard contributing" but rather "this character (who happens to be a bard) is far, far too vulnerable".

The cleric wasn't particularly tough either, but that player had the good sense of taking heavy armor and using some defensive magic, so it wasn't so glaring.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Again, the point isn't about "is the bard contributing" but rather "this character (who happens to be a bard) is far, far too vulnerable".

The cleric wasn't particularly tough either, but that player had the good sense of taking heavy armor and using some defensive magic, so it wasn't so glaring.

Yeah, sorry about getting side tracked. Someone who apparently really like bards seems to think I was saying, "Don't play a bard."

The Bard itself is perfectly fine, and could be a lot of help to a large party heavily dependent on attack rolls.

In this specific case, the issue comes down to, "Why does this particular player want to play their class so sub-optimally that they are willing to risk losing the character?"
 


What to do? Nothing. It's not YOUR character. It's up to the player of the PC and the others at the table to deal with the vulnerability of any given character (or not...). Unless the PC is resulting in serious disruption of the game or a drag on everyone's fun there is no issue for YOU to address.
 


Herobizkit

Adventurer
If this were a 3.5 Bard, I would generally agree that your Bard player is already trying to play with one foot hacked off. I felt that the 3.5 Bard's greatest weakness was its jack-of-all-tradesness was under-shadowed by the fact that feats could make any class into a generalist and also better at what they already do.

A Bard who concentrates on Fighting, fr'ex, won't do as well as a standard Fighter before his Feats. Their spells are generally illusion/charms, which won't help them Wizard; they don't heal as well as Clerics; Rogues are (slightly) better skill monkeys.

Prestige Classes would have been a way to go, or (one of my favorite choices) multi-class into Warlock.

Pathfinder Bards, OTOH, have so much more going for them by way of Archetypes that they should never feel too under-powered.

I can only echo the ideas of the others. In a party of 6, her "output" isn't as important; if she's having fun, that's all that really matters unless her fun is somehow affecting the fun of others. In your group's case, it seems you were taking some kind of offense to her sup-par "build".

Magic items (especially the Big 6) would be the expected stop-gap for that, or again, Prestige Classing, perhaps.
 

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