What TTRPGs have the best tactical combat rules?

[S'mon]

I like the tactics in Dragonbane. We had a knight vs knight duel last session and every combat round involved tactical choices such as what kind of attack to make (slashing, piercing, piercing precision strike), and whether to spend precious WP on use of Heroic Abilities such as Veteran (keep your init card), Defensive (free parry) et al.

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

I don't think car Wars qualifies as a RPG any more than, say, Battletech does.

Neither were written as an RPG at first, which is why I didn't consider either for my original post - doesn't match what you were asking for in the OP. Pretty clear that many suggestions here aren't considering that criteria, though. My own criteria ("comes from an RPG but plays well as a stand-alone board/minis game") leaves me ignoring a lot of possibilities too - there are loads of RPGs with perfectly good combat engines that I still wouldn't want to play as games unto themselves, for varying reasons.

Battletech itself still isn't an RPG, but the various iterations of Mechwarrior certainly are, and most use BT as part of their combat engine alongside added man-to-man rules. Same goes for their distant Renegade Legions cousins Legionnaire and Centurion, Interceptor, etc.

Car Wars steadily grew more and more RP elements as time went by, culminating in GURPS Autoduel. The earlier Autoduel Champions was also a big step into RP territory, as were the AADA Guides and a fair number of the articles in both The Space Gamers and ADQ. Not the first time Steve Jackson started with simple board game (Melee, then Wizard) and grew it into something more explicitly an RPG through the solo modules like Death Test and eventually TFT proper - which did make my list.

 

[payn]

I don't think car Wars qualifies as a RPG any more than, say, Battletech does.

Normally in RPG discussions I would think the distinction matters, but for tactical combat rules I dont think it really does. Though, as a current Battletech guy, it is my best for tactical.

 

[Reynard]

Normally in RPG discussions I would think the distinction matters, but for tactical combat rules I dont think it really does. Though, as a current Battletech guy, it is my best for tactical.

I only think it matters in the context of whether the game was meant to be a TTRPG and therefore have to make concessions in its designs to that end. Games that are explicitly designed as tactical battle games don't have to worry about those concessions, even if they provide the kind of flavor and set-up that encourages bolting role-playing on top.

 

[payn]

I only think it matters in the context of whether the game was meant to be a TTRPG and therefore have to make concessions in its designs to that end. Games that are explicitly designed as tactical battle games don't have to worry about those concessions, even if they provide the kind of flavor and set-up that encourages bolting role-playing on top.

Then perhaps I might offer up BT sometime as the most modular as its tactical rules dial up very nicely right along side the RPG material in Destiny and A Time of War.

I'd quibble with the thought that any RPG really has to make concessions in the tactical sense, I just dont see it in D&D for example.

 

[Reynard]

Then perhaps I might offer up BT sometime as the most modular as its tactical rules dial up very nicely right along side the RPG material in Destiny and A Time of War.

I'd quibble with the thought that any RPG really has to make concessions in the tactical sense, I just dont see it in D&D for example.

"Have to" was probably too strong a term, but I think many do.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Also, the first Twilight 2000 was a very good tactical game -- it focused more on shoot, move, communicate than any other RPG from the 80s that I remember.

As I recall parts of the damage system were wonky as heck though.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Normally in RPG discussions I would think the distinction matters, but for tactical combat rules I dont think it really does. Though, as a current Battletech guy, it is my best for tactical.

Yeah, but if you swing off into that, where does the line between them and any micro scale miniatures game come in?

 

[payn]

Yeah, but if you swing off into that, where does the line between them and any micro scale miniatures game come in?

If the concern is tactical depth, simulation, and/or ease of use I don’t see why not? There were not really any parameters set other than best according to your opinion. I suppose the only concern is RPG which micro minis don’t do but games like Battletech and Warhammer do.

 

[Thomas Shey]

If the concern is tactical depth, simulation, and/or ease of use I don’t see why not? There were not really any parameters set other than best according to your opinion. I suppose the only concern is RPG which micro minis don’t do but games like Battletech and Warhammer do.

I do have to point out that the question was what TTRPGs have the best tactical combat rules. Now it can get a little muddy because things like MechWarrior do exist, but I don't think its inappropriate to try sticking to games that were primarily designed as RPGs, as compared to ones that had an RPG structure bolted on them afterward.

(Yes, I'm aware of the irony given the history of OD&D and Chainmail, but at least suggestions for D&D 4e have the advantage that there were literally decades of evolution away from Chainmail, and the latter was a largely dead system not routinely used for its original purpose any more).