D&D 4E What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?

[Fifth Element]

In my original post I never claimed that TSR owned all rights to Buck Rodgers. That was a simplification of my point. The Dille Family Trust owns all rights to Buck Rodgers, and Loraine Dille Williams is a member of that family and when she was in charge of TSR she brought with her certain licensing rights which TSR used to make the Buck Rodgers Roleplaying game. When selling the company to WotC Ms. Williams decided that those licenses would not be included in the sale. While Ms. Williams did not own the rights by herself, that was the family trust, she did have a large say over whether licensing rights would or could be transfered.

Yes, that's correct. I wasn't responding to you, but Raven Crowking who claimed (if I read the post correctly) that since the Buck Rogers "asset" was not acquired by WotC when they bought TSR, one could infer that there were other assets also not included in the sale.

 

[loseth]

Lets keep with fun assumptions that 30,000 folks may eventually download alpha and 100% convert. Its that a better market to pursue than 4E pathfinder ?

I think that one thing we have to keep in mind is that although the number of potential customers Paizo is looking at with 3.75 is tiny incomparison to the number they'd be looking at going with 4e, the overwhelming majority of their potential 3.75 customers probably have a track record of buying products just like the ones Paizo wants to sell, and that makes a world of difference.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes, that's correct. I wasn't responding to you, but Raven Crowking who claimed (if I read the post correctly) that since the Buck Rogers "asset" was not acquired by WotC when they bought TSR, one could infer that there were other assets also not included in the sale.

In this case, I am happy to defer to authority, although I am very surprised to hear that a license agreement is not normally considered an asset.

RC

 

[Fifth Element]

In this case, I am happy to defer to authority, although I am very surprised to hear that a license agreement is not normally considered an asset.

Often a license agreement will transfer on a change in control of the licensor, but it really depends on the specific terms of the license.

 

[Shadewyn]

I think that one thing we have to keep in mind is that although the number of potential customers Paizo is looking at with 3.75 is tiny incomparison to the number they'd be looking at going with 4e, the overwhelming majority of their potential 3.75 customers probably have a track record of buying products just like the ones Paizo wants to sell, and that makes a world of difference.

I think that is the hang up here ...

No one argues that Paizon doesnt make some kick ass products.

No one is saying that the choice to go Pathfinder will open up the cracks of hell and rain dooooom upon that company swallowing it into the abyss.

What is being said is that there was a meeting, and around that meeting there were choices.

Invest time & resources which are limited and finite especially in smaller companies into one of three options.

A ~ Support the new generation of roleplaying?
B ~ Support the old generation of roleplaying?
C ~ Build a 4E knockoff and try to carve out your own market?


Unless you have been asleep for the last two decades you know that aside from emo board whines about the destruction of their favorite hobby the PAYING portion of the gamer market has swapped over quite readily from BEMCI to AD&D to AD&D2E then to Skill&Powers (AD&D 2.5 as far as I am concerned) to 3E to 3.5E.

Analysts call this a trend ...

If the PAYING portion of the market is largely going over to 4E (and Paizo could care less if 100 MILLION gamers dont swap to 4E, they only care about where the folks that buy products are going) what to do?

Choice A ~ Has issues witht he OGL. Hasbro legal I suspect as the corporate overlords to WotC is being a pain in the ass. 5K though is a drop in the bucket for a publisher like Paizo and if that is the only barrier to entry then they should gladly pay it. Being one of a small handfull of 3rd party publishers allowed to publish data with a name recognition is like paying 5K for a limited monopoly. Its a GOOD THING (albeit handled in a sucky manner).

Choice B ~ Has dwindling market issues ... but the 3.5E is still greater than the next choice ...

Choice C ~ Of those who dont go 4E ... Of those who still buy new game products ... Of those willing to convert their game group to a system with compatibility issues with 3.5 which moves away from there "ease of use" core market ... You find your new target area.


You can argue until you are BLUE in the face that size doesnt matter (thats what she said!) or that they will be just fine, but you miss the basic point.

Market of Choice A > Market of Choice B > Market of Choice C.

If you want to pick a market and you select C ... then yes ... as I originally suggested ... bonehead move.

Some companies have no other choices, and are forced to make do with shrinking markets or deal with issues beyond their control. Paizo had a choice.

They chose poorly.

 

[DaveMage]

I Unless you have been asleep for the last two decades you know that aside from emo board whines about the destruction of their favorite hobby the PAYING portion of the gamer market has swapped over quite readily from BEMCI to AD&D to AD&D2E then to Skill&Powers (AD&D 2.5 as far as I am concerned) to 3E to 3.5E.

Hey that's me! I own (almost) it all! But I'm not going 4E.

I will be buying all the Pathfinder products!

I will not be buying 4E products*.




*Unless I win the lottery or perhaps for 80%+ off in discount bins or used bookstores.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I think that one thing we have to keep in mind is that although the number of potential customers Paizo is looking at with 3.75 is tiny incomparison to the number they'd be looking at going with 4e, the overwhelming majority of their potential 3.75 customers probably have a track record of buying products just like the ones Paizo wants to sell, and that makes a world of difference.

That is a good point. Those that never bought a 3rd party book before will probably not look to Pathfinder RPG now. On the otherhand, those that routinely bought from Mongoose, Necromancer, Green Ronin and so on and want continued life out of those books would be more open to buying from 3rd party products to Pathfinder RPG.

 

[Shadewyn]

Hey that's me! I own (almost) it all! But I'm not going 4E.

I will be buying all the Pathfinder products!

I will not be buying 4E products*.

Oh I see ... you are one of those exception to the rule folks. I bet you think you are special ... well DONCHA!?

*Unless I win the lottery or perhaps for 80%+ off in discount bins or used bookstores.

If you were truly an addicted gamer then cost would not be a barrier. Just like a junky in need of a fix you would go sell your TV or something to dredge up the cash to buy 4E books.

I can see the news reports now ...

Intercity crime has escalated 20% in the last two months as hordes of impoverished gamers have gone on a crime spree in order to afford the latest RPG offering from WotC.

 

[Shadewyn]

That is a good point. Those that never bought a 3rd party book before will probably not look to Pathfinder RPG now. On the otherhand, those that routinely bought from Mongoose, Necromancer, Green Ronin and so on and want continued life out of those books would be more open to buying from 3rd party products to Pathfinder RPG.

That would be choice B ... continue to support 3.5E material. Which is NOT what they are doing.

Paizo is doing choice C ... not convert to 4E and then also not continue with 3.5E and instead push to the Pathfinder system.

The market for 3.5E remaining folks I agree is larger than just Pathfinder.

 

[JediSoth]

I think that is the hang up here ...

<snip>

Choice A ~ Has issues witht he OGL. Hasbro legal I suspect as the corporate overlords to WotC is being a pain in the ass. 5K though is a drop in the bucket for a publisher like Paizo and if that is the only barrier to entry then they should gladly pay it. Being one of a small handfull of 3rd party publishers allowed to publish data with a name recognition is like paying 5K for a limited monopoly. Its a GOOD THING (albeit handled in a sucky manner).

Choice B ~ Has dwindling market issues ... but the 3.5E is still greater than the next choice ...

Choice C ~ Of those who dont go 4E ... Of those who still buy new game products ... Of those willing to convert their game group to a system with compatibility issues with 3.5 which moves away from there "ease of use" core market ... You find your new target area.

<unsnip>

As I recall, Paizo did pay the $5,000 for the sneak-peek GSL, but WotC is 3 months late releasing it to the early adopters.