D&D 4E What would you like 4E to look like.

[airwalkrr]

But let's say there were categories of feats and that they were exchangable within the same catagory? A character might have three fighter feats and the player might be able to exchange them for other fighter feats at any time. If that was the case the demand for new feats would be higher and WoTC would sell more books.

I think this is actually good for the game. For this reason, I expect retraining rules to appear in the next edition's DMG.

 

[WayneLigon]

Abilities:
I could live with 'just modifiers'; ie your Strength score would be 0, +1, +2, etc. I think it makes things simpler.

Classes:
I'd like either a complete change to True20-like approach to classes and feats: spell-user, fighting-person, skills-person; feats then modify these classes to fit the various archetypes.

Not having that, I'd like a reduction in the classes available. Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, maybe Cleric, maybe Monk. Feats every level, or every other level, with the idea that many class abilities also become feats. If I want my Wizard to have a Rogue's sneak attack ability, no need to dip into the class for one level: just take Sneak Attack [General] and be done with it. Paladin, Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer and Bard would be doable by choosing certain feats.

Magic:
I'd like to see the divine/arcane divide disappear. I'd like to see spells done in a totally different way, either as True20-like powers or some sort of scaling mechanic that gets rid of the tremendous and useless duplication of the same five or six effects. I'd say that the vast majority of arguments and confusions in D&D come from the use of spells.

I'd like to see D&D pared down to one book for under $20-$30. It needs to undermine a console game by a significant margin, in any case. It can be done, especially if magic is changed.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

I think all these 4E threads are speeding up its release.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I'm hoping they've taken careful note of my well-thought-out and deeply-considered view on this subject.

 

[tm80401]

Discard BAB entirely. Fold it into the skill system. Break out Exotic weapons into their own Skill, Ranged, Large, Medium, and Small weapons. Or break them up however you want.

Fighter types have these as class skills, demi-fighters (rogue, bard, cleric) have them as cross class, primary magic users have double cross-class (3 skill points for +1 bonus). Stats already add in, so there you go. Maybe do the same thing for Saves.

ALL class abilities available as feats. Your fighter wants to be able to cast spells, take spell casting ability as a feat. you now have the ability of a 1st level spell caster. Primary spellcasters get bonus 'magic' feats, so they can either improve casting ability bulk up on metamagic, or item creation feats.

Discard the 'fire and forget' system. Maybe incorporate the Arcana Evolved magic system. The spell point system in UA seems to boost the power of spellcasters too much, IMHO.

 

[Sir Elton]

I'm hoping they've taken careful note of my well-thought-out and deeply-considered view on this subject.

Dude, if Kate Beckinsale is a nudist, then all you have to do is frequent the naturist resort she visits. Not turn 4e into her.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Dude, if Kate Beckinsale is a nudist, then all you have to do is frequent the naturist resort she visits. Not turn 4e into her.

This is not an either/or situation, though -- I want both. I DEMAND both!

 

[TwoSix]

I want to see 4E move from away from the "X encounters per day" model, where wandering monsters serve to try to wear down the party resources before the fight with the BBEG. I'd like to see it move to a system where every encounter has the potential to kill the party, but the party always starts at full power. Best example I have is the maneuver use in Tome of Battle. Spellcasters would use a similar type of system, where they have access to a few combat spells, but also have spell abilities they can use outside of combat.

 

[Greg K]

I want to see 4E move from away from the "X encounters per day" model, where wandering monsters serve to try to wear down the party resources before the fight with the BBEG. I'd like to see it move to a system where every encounter has the potential to kill the party, but the party always starts at full power. Best example I have is the maneuver use in Tome of Battle. Spellcasters would use a similar type of system, where they have access to a few combat spells, but also have spell abilities they can use outside of combat.

First, x encounters per day does not have to be wandering monsters.
Second, I hate the idea of the party always starting at full power. It is just as bad as x/uses per day as far as I am concerned. Under the former, it doesn't matter that you just went against the bbeg's minions and should be s. As for why uses/day is bad, it goes against sources of inspiration (movies and books) that got most of us to play. The solution, imo, needs to be somewhere in between

 

[Nebulous]

1. Classes. I like them. Nice and easy. I'd like a nice variety of classes, with optional rules in the appendix on how to build your own. If you had that , I think it would be safe to dump the prestige class concept too.
I vote NO against a d20 Modern-like system, with all of its occupations and talent trees and bonus feats upon bonus feats upon bonus feats. We're trying to speed up the game, remember? I sat down to make an 8th level modern character the other day and it took me 2 hours. I wanted to cry.

2. Magic Attack Progression. Good idea. This was presented in UA, wasn't it?

3. New Magic System. In fact, an end to the whole rediculous "spell effect x amount per day" mechanic. No slots. No spell points, which is just a more granular slot system. True20 has the right idea with the skill check concept. Even Wotc is headed in the right direction with the Warlock class.

4. Revamped experience system. Something easier, more intuitive. Less "H&R Block". Allow for more story awards rather than monster corpses. New CR system would be nice, too.

5. New magic item concepts. Without magic items, it wouldn't feel like D&D to me - but I was never too fond of wands that were basically fantasy ray-guns, complete with "ammo". Maybe wands and staffs could give you a bonus to your MAB instead, much like magic swords boost your BAB. Hmmmm.

6. Refined Skill System. Some consolidation would be nice; we've seen it in True 20, and we're getting it in Star Wars Saga Edition. Maybe we can ditch cross-class skills? The character's ability scores and skill point total should keep things balanced enough. It would make character generation faster too, with or without software.


We're all hitting some similar notes here, but its obvious 4e won't please us all. I feel really sorry for the poor sap who has to design it.

I agree with everything you say. Classes need to be balanced over the 20 level spectrum so that they're not so ungodly unwieldable by 14th level. Change the name for character levels and spell levels (maybe...ranks?) just so they can be differentiated.

The magic system needs ITS OWN BOOK. Sure, keep the vancian stuff for people who like it, but come on, add some clever perks for players who want more than that. Arcana Evolved was a move in the right direction with heightened and diminished spells. Ars Magica and Elements of Magic has the route i'd like to see the game though, with spellcasters joining certain cadres and schools of training, learning different TYPES of magic that sets them apart, instead of every single son of a gun memorizing magic missile and fireball and invisibility. I want a big, gargantuan book of magic that has MULTIPLE spell systems that may or may not be tied to class. I don't care, just make it modular and make it clear.

Experience Points: ugh. I hate experience points. Either simplify it to just a few hundred at a time, or maybe go the route of Warhammer and let characters upgrade at their own speed. Keeping track of thousands of experience points is always a pain and i never like doing it. As a DM i don't even like calculating it, and i simply just dish out an average for their level, with awards posted when needed.

A new skill system would be nice, yeah.

And maybe it's just me, but i'm really really tired of the art direction that 3rd edition has taken. Some is great, some is good, some is poor and way too much is cartoony. I want some more gritty realism. I want D&D that has a dark edge. I don't want dungeon punk, and if someone DOES want dungeon-punk, they can buy the accessories that have that look and feel. WotC has the money to buy an entire army of artists to give their books unique feels.

Sorry, i feel like i was ranting a little bit. I just don't want to see 4th edition screwed up, and i don't want to see the inherent problems not get addressed, but i'm afraid the game won't change much at all, and will just get skewered toward selling more miniatures.