• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Whatever "lore" is, it isn't "rules."

Status
Not open for further replies.

ProgBard

First Post
I would argue that rules and lore are never actually distinct streams, even if you try and make them that way. Lore arises through rules interactions regardless. Games produce experiences through interaction with rules systems.

I'm not convinced that either of those last two sentences are consistently true, alone or in combination. :) I think lore often comes first, and suggests rules interactions (if any are needed - but see my previous post) that might arise from it. And role-playing games, by their nature, frequently produce experiences independent of rules systems; I don't think I'm that unusual in having lots of occasions that my players interact with the lore of the setting in ways that aren't directly affected by numbers and dice!

Consider that a GH wizard and an FR wizard are the same wizard - that if they were any different in flavor, they'd also be different in rules.

I regret to tell you that this example is one that I feel makes my point more than yours. ;) If they're the same wizard, the only thing that sets them apart is lore, independent of rules.

(But I also disagree that they're not different in flavor - the tropes and feel of those two settings suggest that they'd be pretty distinct. I would go so far as to say that you could take the same character sheet and put it in the hands of two players - skilled players, mind - who are immersed in the lore of the two respective settings, and you'd get two very different experiences out of them. Which is to say that lore matters - of course it does! - but not always in a definably mechanical way.)

A wizard in Athas isn't the same wizard, because she uses different rules! It may be easy to allow anyone else to use those rules, but those rules would still make them a distinct character - you wouldn't be a "standard FR wizard" if you used defiling. You'd be telling a much different story!

No argument there! Of course a defiler wizard tells a different story; that's a very clear case where lore and rules are so neatly married as to be well-nigh indistinguishable. But consider two things, or perhaps the same thing from two angles:
1. An arcane spellcaster who draws on the life-force of nearby creatures isn't so closely, uniquely married to the lore of Athas that you couldn't use that idea and its attendant mechanics in another setting; and
2. When you start with the lore that "this type of caster must drain the life out of other beings to fule their magic," you wouldn't necessarily and inevitably wind up with the exact mechanics that have been used in DS in its couple of editions. I can think of several ways you could model that in 5e, and I bet you can too. Which is why I hold that rules and lore are indeed closely related, but not quite the same thing.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
But, hang on. How can that be. I've been told in no uncertain terms that addition is not change. Athasian wizards can cast all the same spells as an FR wizard, uses all the same rules but, just has the addition of defiling added on. So, how can something that is not changed be a different character? How can to be telling a much different story when it is not changed?

I understand your question to be: How can it be that adding defiling mechanics to FR wizards would change the story of FR wizards?

And I suppose my response is: Do FR wizards reduce life to cinders and turn the land barren when they cast a spell? Well, once they're defilers, they will! So if they're not doing it already, you're definitely making a change to how they act (and likely to their context in the world as a whole).

Unless, of course, addition actually is change.

So, which is it? Is addition change or not?

Do you actually have trouble understanding the distinction between WotC on the one hand adding a cabal of defilers to FR and on the other hand deciding that all FR magic is now defiling, or why that distinction would matter when discussing lore changes?

If you do understand that, then you understand the addition/change distinction being talked about here.

If you don't understand that, I could try another Generic Food Metaphor. Surely, after 79 pages, no one has tried that yet.

[sblock]Um, an "addition" is when you go to your favorite burger joint and order a burger and you're given the option to also buy a side salad because they're trying out this new thing of selling salads. A "change" is when you go to your favorite burger joint and you order a burger and you're just given a salad instead because the owners really liked salad better, and really burgers are the same as salad when you really get down into it ("they're all calories!", so their burgers are salad now, and I guess if you want a burger made of meat you can grill it up yourself, but really burgers have to be in bowls with lettuce and tomato and crutons now because that's what your burger joint has decided burgers are for the next 10 years. And then you go online and say "Hey, what's wrong with just wanting a burger like I enjoyed before?" and someone says "I prefer salads" and a second person tells you that if you've got a problem with burgers being salads now you're just an unpleasable old troll who's afraid of change and a second person tells you that if this is an issue for you it must secretly be about how you HATE salads and you should stop hating salads because salads didn't hurt you and a third person says you just never want the burger joint to change at all and you're really just interested in keeping burgers 100% the same forever without any alteration.[/sblock]
 

Hussar

Legend
Ah. I understood the example differently.

I thought you meant adding a DS defiler to FR. IOW all the other wizards are still standard FR wizards. It's just that now we have a new type of wizard in addition to the existing FR wizards.

If you're simply replacing all wizards then fair enough. We all agree that's a change. But what if we only add? Is it still a change?
 

Hussar

Legend
Now as far as "aha gotcha" goes, that isn't my intention. My point is that by crafting this rather bizarre definition of change, you open up all sorts of inconsistencies.

Adding something to the lore is a change except when it isn't, is not a very useful definition of change.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I'm not convinced that either of those last two sentences are consistently true, alone or in combination. :) I think lore often comes first, and suggests rules interactions (if any are needed - but see my previous post) that might arise from it. And role-playing games, by their nature, frequently produce experiences independent of rules systems; I don't think I'm that unusual in having lots of occasions that my players interact with the lore of the setting in ways that aren't directly affected by numbers and dice!
The rules are not just "numbers and dice," though. Rules also include things like the DM describing what happens in the world as a result of the PC's actions, or the hair color of drow elves.

I regret to tell you that this example is one that I feel makes my point more than yours. ;) If they're the same wizard, the only thing that sets them apart is lore, independent of rules.

(But I also disagree that they're not different in flavor - the tropes and feel of those two settings suggest that they'd be pretty distinct. I would go so far as to say that you could take the same character sheet and put it in the hands of two players - skilled players, mind - who are immersed in the lore of the two respective settings, and you'd get two very different experiences out of them. Which is to say that lore matters - of course it does! - but not always in a definably mechanical way.)
If a setting has "tropes" that one should use when creating a character in that setting, that's also a rule. In D&D, these tropes are typically telegraphed through character creation options like race, class, background, etc.

No argument there! Of course a defiler wizard tells a different story; that's a very clear case where lore and rules are so neatly married as to be well-nigh indistinguishable. But consider two things, or perhaps the same thing from two angles:
1. An arcane spellcaster who draws on the life-force of nearby creatures isn't so closely, uniquely married to the lore of Athas that you couldn't use that idea and its attendant mechanics in another setting; and
2. When you start with the lore that "this type of caster must drain the life out of other beings to fule their magic," you wouldn't necessarily and inevitably wind up with the exact mechanics that have been used in DS in its couple of editions. I can think of several ways you could model that in 5e, and I bet you can too. Which is why I hold that rules and lore are indeed closely related, but not quite the same thing.

1. Like I said, it's easy to allow anyone else to use the defiling rules, but outside of the other rules for playing a Dark Sun character, you'd be having a distinct experience from a "real" defiler.

2. Different mechanics create different experiences.

For instance, the 4e defiling mechanic created a "temptation of power" experience - you always had the option to defile, each time you cast, but you never had to take it. The 2e defiling mechanic served the experience of defining your entire character by whether or not they defiled. Once you decided what kind of character you wanted to play, you were largely defined by that for the reset of that character's existence. This meant that the experience of playing a defiler in 4e was largely one of a recurring question about violating nature (and your allies) or not, while the experience of playing a defiler in 2e was largely one of defining yourself as a defiler and creating a character who would ruin nature who might nonetheless be a heroic character in Dark Sun, thus emphasizing themes of dark and flawed heroes in a dark and flawed world.

The main question there is "does this mechanic deliver the experience the player should have?" If you want your player to have the experience of actually killing the land to cast their magic, the 2e mechanic will give you that more and more often than the 4e mechanic (where the player is likely to rarely - if ever - actually defile). But, if you want to emphasize the evil of the sorcerer-kings, the 4e mechanic might do a bit better in delivering that experience, since it is such a rarely-used option: the sorcerer-kings must be truly wicked, since they clearly disregarded the safety of their own companions!

When designing any other mechanic to represent defiling, this is how you evaluate if it's "good" or not: you evaluate how well the experience your mechanic creates lines up with the experience you want to create. So while many mechanics could hypothetically represent defiling, not all of those mechanics are equal in producing the experience of being a defiler - only those rules that get you to the lore are actually good rules for that lore.
 

Imaro

Legend
Now as far as "aha gotcha" goes, that isn't my intention. My point is that by crafting this rather bizarre definition of change, you open up all sorts of inconsistencies.

Adding something to the lore is a change except when it isn't, is not a very useful definition of change.

And yet numerous posters other than you have been able to grasp the labels we have defined as change and addition... and we have answered whether something is change or addition (for the most part) in sync with each other. Nothing is 100% there will always be corner cases and inconsistencies with everything in life (especially when it comes to the meaning of words)... However your efforts to purposefully and continuously, through pedantry, force said inconsistencies to arise is the "aha gotcha" you keep trying to catch some of us in. It's a dishonest and annoying way to try and discuss something.
 
Last edited:

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The rules are not just "numbers and dice," though. Rules also include things like the DM describing what happens in the world as a result of the PC's actions, or the hair color of drow elves.
The DM narrating results is a rule only in the very broadest sense, in that it has to happen somehow. The hair colour of Drow may or may not be a rule depending on how the DM has flavoured her Drow and-or whether they are ever bald and-or whether Drow even exist in her game at all.

It's much like in chess where a hard mechanical rule states each side starts with one queen but only the flavour - not the rules at all - determines what the queen's piece looks like. (and by the by, if I take the white queen piece from a different set and replace my own white queen piece with it then yes, I am still playing chess)

If a setting has "tropes" that one should use when creating a character in that setting, that's also a rule. In D&D, these tropes are typically telegraphed through character creation options like race, class, background, etc.
Perhaps, but I think you're well on the way to conflating "rule" and "convention". The game rule might state that any race may be a Wizard but the world convention (i.e. the game lore) is that Dwarves and Wizardry don't mix while Elves are more attuned to magic and thus are more likely to be Wizards. There may well be no mechanical backup (i.e. rule) for this at all, but when moving through the world looking for Wizards you're far better off if you look in the Elven lands first.

The rules are the mechanical framework on which the lore is hung.

Lan-"and the white knight is talking backwards, and the red queen says off with her head"-efan
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Hussar said:
Now as far as "aha gotcha" goes, that isn't my intention. My point is that by crafting this rather bizarre definition of change, you open up all sorts of inconsistencies.

Adding something to the lore is a change except when it isn't, is not a very useful definition of change.
It seems like you grok the essential distinction. You can see the difference. The quibble over "definition" is unnecessary jargonwankery. (It's not my definition, either, and were I a jargonologist I might seek a more precise language, but I see the distinction and recognize it as real, and you seem to do that as well, so why worry about the meaning of a word for a thing that we all actually understand?)

Ah. I understood the example differently.

I thought you meant adding a DS defiler to FR. IOW all the other wizards are still standard FR wizards. It's just that now we have a new type of wizard in addition to the existing FR wizards.

If you're simply replacing all wizards then fair enough. We all agree that's a change. But what if we only add? Is it still a change?

Call it a flooferdoodle if that floats your boat. You can see that the distinction is real and relevant.

If WotC introduces a defiler into FR in the next series of adventures, you can bet your assets that this will still rain on someone's parade, at least a little bit. Like, someone who isn't big on FR being this cross-planar kitchen sink and would prefer it to be unique and special on its own would probably think it's a dumb move. Someone who really likes defilers and thinks that the most awesome aspect about them is that they're linked to Athas's apocalypse will probably be annoyed at this "mickey mouse" version. Etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Because you can't just pick up a defiler and drop it into FR and expect both of those things to work the same way they did before. You've changed the rules, so you've changed the experience.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The DM narrating results is a rule only in the very broadest sense, in that it has to happen somehow. The hair colour of Drow may or may not be a rule depending on how the DM has flavoured her Drow and-or whether they are ever bald and-or whether Drow even exist in her game at all.
That a group might change a rule doesn't stop it from being a rule, does it? If I use THAC0 at my table, the attack roll is still the rule. If drow don't exist in my game, drow as a racial option is still the rule. When talking about "Rules As Written," all of these things are RAW. They tell you how to play the game. Part of how you play the game is that sometimes you describe your drow's hair and here are the rules for how you describe drow hair.

(FWIW, I don't even know if drow hair is in the PHB, but I think the point stands. :))

It's much like in chess where a hard mechanical rule states each side starts with one queen but only the flavour - not the rules at all - determines what the queen's piece looks like. (and by the by, if I take the white queen piece from a different set and replace my own white queen piece with it then yes, I am still playing chess)
How the queen looks isn't part of the rules of chess. The appearance of the queen isn't relevant to the gameplay of chess.

However, the appearance of your character is relevant to the gameplay of D&D, which involves creating an image of your character in the minds of your fellow-players, which means knowing what color their hair is.

Perhaps, but I think you're well on the way to conflating "rule" and "convention". The game rule might state that any race may be a Wizard but the world convention (i.e. the game lore) is that Dwarves and Wizardry don't mix while Elves are more attuned to magic and thus are more likely to be Wizards. There may well be no mechanical backup (i.e. rule) for this at all, but when moving through the world looking for Wizards you're far better off if you look in the Elven lands first.

The rules are the mechanical framework on which the lore is hung.

The rules for elves say "Elves are a magical people of otherworldly grace." The rules for dwarves say "Dwarves are known as skilled warriors, miners, and workers of stone and metal." So there are rules that suggest that elves are more common wizards than dwarves are (this can be further reinforced by certain elves having +1 INT and a cantrip, making a wizard-elf a more common thing as a PC than a wizard-dwarf).

The rules are the thing that make up the play of the game, and part of playing D&D is imagining a world where elves are wizards more often than dwarves, and the rules thus support that play in various ways.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Defiling magic could be an interesting change for FR. Imagine if the elves all used preserving magic which they taught the humans of Netheril. The Netheril wizards started out as preservers but found they could push their magic to greater heights at the expense of the vitality of the land around them. Instead of the phaerimm (or was it the sharn?) causing the desert it was the Netherese and their overuse of defiling. Now in the current timeline, defiling has been lost or possibly blocked by the goddess of magic much as she blocked the greater levels of spells after Netheril's fall.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top