What's a "unique being" for purposes of Gate?

[Sithobi1]

No, but casting healing spells is a good act.

Really? I would say that if you cast healing spells on evil people, that is an evil act, and if you cast healing spells on good people, that is a good act. Barring of course undead, who reverse this.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

This is all I could find regarding spells and alignments.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Really? I would say that if you cast healing spells on evil people, that is an evil act, and if you cast healing spells on good people, that is a good act. Barring of course undead, who reverse this.

This is all I could find regarding spells and alignments.

Something does not have to have an alignment descriptor to be a good or evil act.

I base my statement that casting healing spells is a good act on (1) the SRD definition of "Good" (which seems to care who it helps no more than evil cares who it hurts) and (2) a simple line of reasoning stemming from the statement in Defenders of the Faith (which is 3.0) that channelling positive energy is a good act.

To wit,

(A) Channelling positive energy is a good act.
(B) Healing spells channel positive energy.
(C) Therefore, casting healing spells is a good act.​

No intent to hijack this thread into a "What is the nature of Good/Evil?" argument. The only point I wish to make is that evil beings are not precluded from good acts, any more than good beings are precluded from evil acts.

RC

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Gate should have been simply been capped at 25 HD (like the errated shapechange) for purposes of whether control can be exercised or not. It's boring, but draws a definite line. All references to specific/unique can then be dropped, and confusion avoided. It allows some flexibility (e.g. Balor Ftr 5 is permissible), and maybe minor diabolic/demonic aristocracy, depending on how the DM has statted them. I think that this is within the power range that you'd expect from a 9th level spell. It also avoids some of the excesses otherwise possible when the ELH is brought into play. Yes, I know it's a house rule, but you're going to have to interpret this wording of spell so specifically otherwise, that it may as well be anyway.

If you don't set a HD limit, the inconsistency remains with greater planar binding as well - if your DM has statted a Duke of Hell with 18HD (a little low for my tastes, but consistent with the BoVD) - then you have the curious situation of an 8th level spell being able to accomplish what a 9th level spell + 1000XP cannot.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

No intent to hijack this thread into a "What is the nature of Good/Evil?" argument. The only point I wish to make is that evil beings are not precluded from good acts, any more than good beings are precluded from evil acts.

No argument necessary.

Some spells have the [good] or [evil] descriptors. That's what they are there for.

A cleric can't cast spells in opposition to his deity's alignment (not even his own-- his deity's) and it's not much of a stretch to assume that an outsider is bound by the same rules.

Wulf

 

[Chaldfont]

I agree with the crowd that says "unique" refers only to beings of nigh-godlike power, truely unique to the campaign setting and not to specific, templated, advanced or classed extra-planar beings.

There are some that say this is unbalancing because it allows PCs to call extremely powerful beings. Ok, so what? The more powerful being you call, the more risk you run that the being (or it's allies) will take revenge.

Others argue that powerful extraplanar beings could use gate to call PCs to their doom. Again, so what? That sounds like a great plot hook to me. Any PC who has gained the attention of such an outsider has reached a level of power where they have to beware of such tactics. And what's stopping PCs or NPCs from researching a new 9th level abjuration that protects one from being gated? Or manufacturing an artifact or location that grants such protection? Or falling under some divine mandate that prevents the gating of "mortal souls" on pain of annihilation.

This would be my ruling:

The fiendish, vampiric ancient blue dragon named Sharzzakhar, consort to the Great Mother of All Dragons can be gated, and has no choice in the matter, while the Great Mother of All Dragons, who is no goddess but truely is the First Dragon, can choose to stay or go upon being gated. But since while he sits upon the Hoard of the Great Mother, Sharzzakhar enjoys the protection of her Skein of Many Wards which, among other things, protects those within range from being gated.

Just an opinion (though one probably unwelcome in the Rules Forum): Too many times we worry about the exact wording of the rules and fail to rely upon Imagination and Trust of the DM to run a Good Game.

 

[MerakSpielman]

This would be my ruling:

The fiendish, vampiric ancient blue dragon named Sharzzakhar, consort to the Great Mother of All Dragons can be gated, and has no choice in the matter, while the Great Mother of All Dragons, who is no goddess but truely is the First Dragon, can choose to stay or go upon being gated. But since while he sits upon the Hoard of the Great Mother, Sharzzakhar enjoys the protection of her Skein of Many Wards which, among other things, protects those within range from being gated.

See, I might be convinced to allow the players to summon a "fiendish, vampiric ancient blue dragon" and it wouldn't get a choice. In an infinite multiverse there are, after all, an infinite number of such beasts somewhere. But if the party wanted to Gate in "Sharzzakhar, consort to the Great Mother of all Dragons," I would allow a choice, because the beast is being called specifically and individually out of the multitudes of available dragon with exactly the same statistics.

I'd use the criteria that if the caster knows in advance exactly which being he wants to summon, the being gets a choice. There is a good reason for this. If your wizard wants to gate in a fiendish, vampiric ancient blue dragon, chances are he just wants some help during a nasty combat. However, if he wants to Gate in Sharzzakhar specifically, chances are he's doing so for a specific plot reason, perhaps as part of setting a trap for the Great Mother dragon, or to ask specific questions the answeres to which only Sharzzakhar knows. Not allowing the Gating of specific indivuals helps the DM maintain a bit more control over the plot, especially if it's centered on the political machinations between groups of outsiders (as I believe PC's game is at the moment).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'd use the criteria that if the caster knows in advance exactly which being he wants to summon, the being gets a choice.

That, however, flies in the face of the mythos upon which D&D is based, in which calling demons is easier when you know the name of that which you're calling.

That's something I'm not particularly happy about regarding your interpretation.

 

[MerakSpielman]

That, however, flies in the face of the mythos upon which D&D is based, in which calling demons is easier when you know the name of that which you're calling.

That's something I'm not particularly happy about regarding your interpretation.

If that mythos (which I'm not convinced is intended to be in D&D at all) is really that important to you, I suggest each extraplanar creature have a secret True Name which cannot be magically divined, but would allow a caster to Gate in individuals without giving them a choice.

 

[Piratecat]

:shrugs: I dunno'. Just wanted to know what PC was basing that statement on.

Although specific demon lords & archdevils could have the ability...

In particular I was thinking of solars, who can cast as 20th lvl clerics. I've got beasties out there who can gate as well.

 

[Gez]

See Sepulchrave's story hour, where it's well known by archfiends that solars can create what they call a cascade -- first solar gate in another, then both each gate in others, etc. With up to 4 gate spell by solar, you can get a nigh-exponential progression.