What's the deal with Rake?

[Savage Wombat]

The description of the Rake special ability in the MM specifically mentions doing it on the round after you grapple.

However, the creatures that have it - like Lions - tend to have Pounce, and specifically say that the rake attacks can be used on the same round as the grab.

Is this a contradiction?

 

[frankthedm]

The description of the Rake special ability in the MM specifically mentions doing it on the round after you grapple.

However, the creatures that have it - like Lions - tend to have Pounce, and specifically say that the rake attacks can be used on the same round as the grab.

Is this a contradiction?

Contradiction? No. The Lion needs to have it's pounce specify that it can rake on a pounce. Specific monster abilities sometimes will override the base rules of monster abilties. When this happens the text of the monster entry should specify. Sometimes it does not though as evidenced by the errata and faq.

 

[Marshall]

Except that both the Lions and the Tiger Rake specifically go off immediately following a successful Grapple check.

BTR, its possible for a kitty to Rake 5 times in a single round.

Pounce
Claw(Grab) Rake
Claw(Grab) Rake
Bite(Grab) Rake
Rake
Rake

Common sense tells you that you either get the free rakes from pounce or you get a single grapple check to enable a rake.

But since the rules for Grapple ar so borked anyway....do it however you want.

 

[Kapalen]

I thought once you grabbed you were grappled though, so you wouldn't get the other 4 rakes?

 

[Marshall]

Theres nothing preventing you from letting go...

 

[Kapalen]

Theres nothing preventing you from letting go...

Ah...

 

[frankthedm]

Theres nothing preventing you from letting go...

The grapple rules do. Once an improved grab occurs the grapple rules take over. Only way out is with an opposed grapple check to break grapple.

Except that both the Lions and the Tiger Rake specifically go off immediately following a successful Grapple check.

I think you are jumping the gun on that. Nearly all critters with the improved grab into rake ability have it written the same way.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a [creature] must hit with its [specified] attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

 

[Marshall]

The grapple rules do. Once an improved grab occurs the grapple rules take over. Only way out is with an opposed grapple check to break grapple.

Nope. You established the grapple, got your rake in, and now, since you just won the grapple check you are free to let go.

I think you are jumping the gun on that. Nearly all critters with the improved grab into rake ability have it written the same way.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a [creature] must hit with its [specified] attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

[/quote]

Right. Win grapple check--->rake. Next attack. Win grapple check--->rake. yada.

Or, use your head and rule that Imp Grab only occurs once at the end of the attack routine.

The grapple rules need a LOT of help.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Nope. You established the grapple, got your rake in, and now, since you just won the grapple check you are free to let go.

No. To let go requires a specific grapple "attack". It is not part of the improved grapple to obtain a hold of someone. I quite honestly don't understand how you came by the interpretation that the opposed grapple check to hold your opponent is the same one for releasing him, which is explicitly called out to require another attack (like pinning or other actions).

 

[GorTeX]

so what about:

Step 4
Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

so, just don't move into the target's square and drop them, then grapple again.

but then, this says if you can't move, not if you don't want to.

also, under pinned it says:

You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa).

It does not say this for just being grappled...so releasing is only a free action if you have pinned your opponent or you can not enter their space (or pull them into your space as some monsters do)