Whats the deal with rogues anyway?

[Fallen Seraph]

I think one should be reminded that the Rogue does have abilities no one else has in regards to Thievery, Stealth and all things such as these. These abilities give the Rogue a mechanical advantage over other classes when it comes to pickpocketing, entering places, staying hidden, unlocking locks, disabling traps, streetwise info, etc.

Powers:

• Quick Fingers: Utility 2
• Fleeting Ghost: Utility 2
• Master of Deceit: Utility 2
• Double Take: Utility 2
• Great Leap: Utility 2
• Chameleon: Utility 6
• Nimble Climb: Utility 6
• Dangerous Theft: Utility 10 (Requires Combat, but I would say a "shove" to "initiate combat" isn't much)
• Brisk Stride: Utility 10
• Foil the Lock: Utility 16
• Grasshopper Leap: Utility 16
• Magpie Filch: Utility 16 (requires a melee attack, but again works like Dangerous Theft)
• Shadow Stride: Utility 16
• Hide in Plain Sight: Utility 16
• Hide From the Light: Utility 22
• Scoundrel's Epiphany: Utility 22
• Wall Crawl: Utility 22
• Dazzling Acrobat: Utility 22
• Cloud Jump: Utility 22

Paragon Path Options:

• Master Infiltrator: Skillful Infiltrator
• Master Infiltrator: Impossible to Catch
• Cat Burglar: Acrobatic Action
• Cat Burglar:Athletic Master
• Daring Acrobat: Acrobatic Action
• Daring Acrobat: Flawless Stunt
• Guildmaster Thief: Thieving Crew (in this case by making everyone else better at Stealth and Thievery it can help you too)
• Master Spy: Cover Action
• Strong Arm Enforcer: Implied Threat
• Tiefling Hellstalker: Devil's Sight

So by just going through Rogue Utility Powers and Paragon Paths I have gained this amount of Powers that be useful for non-combat situations focused toward Roguish things. I think this is a fairly good show. I am sure many Combat Powers could also be useful, as well as Epic Destinies, Feats, Backgrounds, etc. I have probably missed a fair amount too as well.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Bilbo knew a lot and had shady connections?

EDIT: D&D has never really been good at modelling non-combatants as PCs, aside from perhaps the 3e NPC classes. Bilbo wasn't a a member of the thief class (couldn't open locks, disarm traps, no Thieves Cant, no armor or weapon training - he was a landowner with quick wits and a ridiculous amount of luck). The hobbits from LotR were basically 0-level characters, with Merry and Pippin perhaps picking up a level of fighter along the way.

No, Bilbo was trained in armor + weapons:

Remember he used Sting as if he trained for years. Hre also wore armor at certain parts of story.

He just didn't bring much weaponry with him (lack of planning + he was hired to be a a burgler).

He'd be a rogue in 3.5 that took no skill points in Open lock, etc. He was very much an opportunist fighter (sneak attacking while flanking, etc).

 

[Remathilis]

EW.

So let me get this straight.

You have a "fighter" class that can be configured as such...

1.) Heavy Weapon/Armor (Str) Fighter + Poor Skills = Typical Fighter
2.) Heavy Weapon/Armor (Str) Fighter + Good Skills = 1e Ranger (?)
3.) Light Weapon/Armor (Dex) Fighter + Poor Skills = Swashbuckler
4.) Light Weapon/Armor (Dex) Fighter + Good Skills = Thief/Rogue

Granted, I'm sure you'll allow more archetypes than mentioned, but those are the main options. Right?

 

[ExploderWizard]

EW.

So let me get this straight.

You have a "fighter" class that can be configured as such...

1.) Heavy Weapon/Armor (Str) Fighter + Poor Skills = Typical Fighter
2.) Heavy Weapon/Armor (Str) Fighter + Good Skills = 1e Ranger (?)
3.) Light Weapon/Armor (Dex) Fighter + Poor Skills = Swashbuckler
4.) Light Weapon/Armor (Dex) Fighter + Good Skills = Thief/Rogue

Granted, I'm sure you'll allow more archetypes than mentioned, but those are the main options. Right?

Not quite. Skills are outside the scope of class/specialty and will be available to all classes equally. The fighter types I have right now are:

1) Heavy Armor (Knight) =Defensive specialist
2) Light/No Armor (Swashbuckler)= Rogue type
3) Med?Light Armor (Berserker)= Barbarian type
4) Any Armor (Markman)= Missile weapon specialist

All classes have the same options to choose from with regard to skills. Each character chooses which skill sets to be good/ok/better than nothing at.
Weapon training benefits are class dependent. All fighter types have the most training slots, followed by cleric, then magic user.

To make a typical ranger you would create a fighter (marksman), spend weapon training slots on the bow, and take ranger as the primary set of job skills. For a melee ranger you could use a swashbuckler as the basic type. I'm still working on things and debating other types.

For a classic rogue you could start with a swashbuckler and train as a thief for primary skills. This way you won't be penalized in combat for choosing a non-combat skill specialty and you can function fully as a swashbuckler fighter even if you chose a different skill set.

All fighter types will have basic training in all armors, and a large variety of weapons, and can put on plate and weild heavy weapons when the need arises. They will also all have the same range of hit points and no warrior has to suffer from glass jaw syndrome.

The non-combat niche will not be restricted by class, only by player choice. Raw ability scores will determine where the most talent lies, but the player gets to choose what to focus on.