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Whats the deal with rogues anyway?

tomBitonti

Adventurer
As I see it, it's the same reason that I don't use a dicing blade to chop up a chicken or a meat cleaver to dice veggies. With enough effort you might be able to, but each knife is better suited to it's own task.

This admittedly does break down mechanically, because although the default assumptions of D&D are that a fighter hacks away with a heavy meat cleaver while the rogue carefully dissects his opponent with a sharp dagger, the system does little to prevent you from doing the opposite. A fighter who uses a dagger would suffer slightly for it, but a rogue who gains proficiency with a greataxe actually increases his damage (at least pre-4e).

....

The rogue's bonus damage allegedly comes from exploiting weaknesses in an enemy's defense rather than exploiting complete lack of awareness (hence why sneak attack functions when flanking).

Hi,

I got to thinking about the same after I put in my reply. There does seem to be a lot of skill difference between a rogue wielding a thin-blade, who darts in unseen to attack, and a fighter who relies on a heftier weapon.

Then, why not restrict sneak-attack to light weapons? (And, if you want: A light piercing weapon does sneak attack damage; a light slashing weapon does bleeding damage; a light bashing weapon does stun or limb-numbing damage.)

I do see a difference between a swashbucker, who relies more on agility and panache, and a straight up sword-and-board fighter, and a shadow dwelling rogue.

To reply to other questions raised on this thread, I started thinking about the question of what base classes to select, and can't decide how 4E is handling this. Is there a listing of power sources and of the classes per power source? I also have difficulty because "spell caster" is not a distinction in 4E.
 

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Voadam

Legend
I thought I had mentioned the bit about multiclassing. As intended, the selection of a fighter path determines the direction of a character's martial career. Multiclassing would mean entering a magical based career. There wouldn't be a case of taking a few levels of several fighting classes to load up on different specialty skills as there would be only one fighting class. This will help keep niche abilities special and different kinds of characters from the same class from becoming clones.

They won't become clones because they can no longer multiclass into other similar classes?

It seems to me that two straight classed barbarians will be clones just as much under this as they would be under the normal rules. You will only prevent things like the barbarian/fighter and the barbarian/rogue and instead get either two barbarians or two characters of different "fighter paths".

You will prevent hybrids, not clones.:)
 
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Voadam

Legend
Sure the wizard could fill up slots with this. It still doesn't help with silent movement (the other part of stealth) and if the wizard attacks or casts a spell (such as scying magic at a door) the effect ends. Add to that the fact that invisibility was not the " you can't even begin to target me" magic that it became in 3E then it doesn't seem so impressive.

Elves got free silent move regardless of class as long as not in heavy armor IIRC. And a human in robes and soft boots is not too shabby at staying quiet enough for invisibility to be effective for sneaking.

I don't remember spell casting ending invisibility, it was just attacks.

Also silence 15' radius was a second level cleric spell as well.

I remember DMing a solo 5/5 drow cleric/MU through one of the slaver modules in 1e, he went invisible and scouted most everything out fairly impressively.
 

Spatula

Explorer
To reply to other questions raised on this thread, I started thinking about the question of what base classes to select, and can't decide how 4E is handling this. Is there a listing of power sources and of the classes per power source? I also have difficulty because "spell caster" is not a distinction in 4E.
Only arcane classes use "spells" - therefore, all arcane classes are spellcasters. :)

Which source a class belongs to is pretty straightforward.
Martial: Fighter, ranger, rogue, warlord
Divine: Cleric, paladin, avenger (PB2), invoker (PHB2)
Arcane: Wizard, warlock, swordmage (FR), bard (PHB2), sorcerer (PHB2), artificer (Dragon / Eberron)
Primal (PHB2): Druid, barbarian, shaman, warden
 

Spatula

Explorer
Sure the wizard could fill up slots with this. It still doesn't help with silent movement (the other part of stealth) and if the wizard attacks or casts a spell (such as scying magic at a door) the effect ends. Add to that the fact that invisibility was not the " you can't even begin to target me" magic that it became in 3E then it doesn't seem so impressive.
Well, the other half of it is the 2nd level cleric spell silence 15' radius if you need to be super-sneaky, but just plain invisibility is fine for scouting in a lot of situations, as well as being useful in combat.

Only attacks break invisibility, so scrying would not.

But that's the main sticking point. In 1e/2e, it wasn't until you REALLY got high level (7th level spells and above) that you could afford as a wizard to use 2nd level slots for knock.
I was talking primarily about invisibility, which is both a useful defensive spell and, with an 8 hour duration, an incredible scouting spell.

Of course, given the fact that 2nd level spells generally sucked ass in terms of damage it was a no-brainer.
Very true.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Then, why not restrict sneak-attack to light weapons? (And, if you want: A light piercing weapon does sneak attack damage; a light slashing weapon does bleeding damage; a light bashing weapon does stun or limb-numbing damage.)

You could do that, though you'd probably have to toss some of the assumptions of various editions of D&D.

For example, the 3.x fighter hits more often (higher BA means more accuracy and more attacks) while rogues do more damage per hit (assuming sneak attack). If you just slap the ability to do sneak attack with light weapons on a 3.x fighter, I imagine that many fighters would start carrying a shortsword (slightly less base damage, but sneak attack dice allow it to hit almost as hard or even harder than a greatsword while flanking). Now the fighter still has his accuracy and extra attack, but also gets sneak attack damage and is completely superior to the rogue so far as combat is concerned.

I can't imagine any reason under these circumstances to use a longsword. It's probable that some fighters would still use two-handed weapons, assuming they could leverage strength and power attack to outdo sneak attack.

Admittedly, there was exactly this sort of fighter variant in Unearthed Arcana (that wasn't limited to light weapons) but it gave up all of it's fighter feats to do so (and I'm still not convinced it was balanced).

Basically, you'd have to balance the fighter and rogue around the new mechanic (which might not be too easy) or accept that you've given the fighter the rogue's combat schtick without giving the rogue anything in return (unbalanced).
 

Remathilis

Legend
Elves got free silent move regardless of class as long as not in heavy armor IIRC. And a human in robes and soft boots is not too shabby at staying quiet enough for invisibility to be effective for sneaking.

I don't remember spell casting ending invisibility, it was just attacks.

Also silence 15' radius was a second level cleric spell as well.

I remember DMing a solo 5/5 drow cleric/MU through one of the slaver modules in 1e, he went invisible and scouted most everything out fairly impressively.

Ah yes. Elven stealth. That was a cool ability that actually stacked with Move Silently; since the former gave a -4 penalty to surprise rolls and the latter another -4 (which effectively stacked, no rule saying it didn't) you could surprise a foe on a 1-8 on a 1d10. Great for backstabs, if you through you could drop your foe with 5d8+str damage... (At 13th level).
 

Some "random" things...

Magic vs Skill:
If magic can do the same as a skill, you can have different options:
1) Magic is very limited. You can do it with 100 % success, but only once in a short time. That's basically what D&D magic tried to do, but at some point, certain magic was no longer that strictly limited. (either because these spells required spell slots you had in abundance, or you could "magic on a stick")
2) Magic works similar to a skill. Maybe you need to make a magic skill check instead of the normal skill. Invisibility spells in Shadowrun are resisted with Willpower or Intelligence (they are still "better" than regular stealth, but you could avoid that.
3) Magic is not reliable at all. Maybe your invisibility spell can break down or fail when tried to be cast, and retries are hard.


"Spike damage" vs "consistent damage".
That could be your operating model between sneak attack/backstab/inesse fighting styles vs "brute" fighting style.
The Rogue often functions as a scout. He is operating away from the party, and he needs the ability to take down individual enemies fast before he can retreat or move on.

1) Sneak Attacks
This is a unique opportunity that doesn't repeat itself often (or at all) in any scenario. You need to ensure that your enemy is unaware of your presence, sneak onto him, and strike hard and deadly.
A certain assumption we take here: The more agile your weapon is, the better this works.
A Backstab deals 1[W]+DEX+STR damage with two-handed weapons, 2[W]+STR+DEX with one-handed or ranged weapons, and 3[W]+STR+DEX with light weapons, half damage on a miss. If you deal a certain amount of damage (maybe Constitution + 1/2 level), the target must save or be knocked out (dead/unconscious), on a successful save it is just knocked prone, and takes an ongoing effect based on weapon, for example: Light Blade/Heavy Blade/Axe - Ongoing Damage 5 (save ends); Mace/Flail/Hammer - Daze (Save ends).
If we assume the "Martial/Fighter" class basically works like the 3E Fighter (bonus feats), there would be a fighter bonus feat that increases the damage by +1[W] and maybe a few feats that increase the save DC and the bleeding damage/worsens Dazed to Stunned until end of next turn, Dazed (save ends) or Dazed (save ends), Aftereffect: Combat Advantage (save end)

2) Backstab and Brute Fighting:
Backstabbing would be a Rogue typical feat or feat tree. It would increase your damage and/or attack bonus when fighting with combat advantage, with greater benefits for light weapons. Brute Fighting would increase your damage output under any circumstances, but even more with two handed weapons. Add Shield Fighting for those with a shield.

Backstab I: +3 to damage when you have combat advantage.
Backstab II: +1 to attack when you have combat advantage.
Brute Fighting: +1 to damage with one-handed weapon, +2 to damage with two-handed weapons.
Brute Fighting II: -1 to enemy attacks when attacking with a two-handed weapon.
Shield Fighting I: +1 to defense when using shield and one-handed weapon.
Shield Fighting II: +1 to defense of yourself and your adjacent allies with one-handed weaopn.

Or, if you prefer fighters to be more versatile in their combat style:
Weapon Master I: +1 to attacks.
With Light Weapons: Increase to +2 when having combat advantage.
With Shield: Add +1 to defense.
With Two-Handed Weapon: Add +2 to damage.

Weapon Master II: +1 to all damage.
Prerequisite: Weapon Master I
With Light Weapons: Increase to +3 when having combat advantage.
With Shield: Defense Bonus applies to all adjacent allies.
With Two-Handed Weapon: Increase to +2.

Weapon Master III: +1 to all damage.
Prerequisite: Weapon Master II
With Light Weapons: Increase to +3 when having combat advantage.
With Shield: Defense Bonus from WM I increases to +2.
With Two-Handed Weapon: Enemy also takes a -2 penalty to attacks against anyone but you.


The basic idea when balancing the specific bonus:
The Backstaber/Sneak Attacker deals a lot of initial damage, but that "spike" damage (and possibly negation of damage by taking out an entire opponent) is balanced against the extra damage inflicted by someone that needs to rely on consistent damage (and possibly hindering his foes attacks.)
Doing this in a vacuum is pretty hard, you would need to have a good model of your "typical" combat and the expected damages and so on. Well, you need to do that if your goal is actual balance. If you just want different ways to play each character, you can be more imprecise, but don't run to me if people whine about overpowered or underpowered Fighter builds in your system. ;)

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Skill Systems in general:
I think one "issue" with the system is that you need different number of skills for different roles or sublcasses inside your Fighter class. The Rogue just needs to cover a lot more skills than the standard brute fighter of 3E. If you want to cover both with the same main class, and allow a certain freedom in switching between these roles, you need to have a solution for that.
Not all skills are created equal, not all roles require the same number of skills, and it's hard to put this all under one heading. I am not sure how to solve this. Maybe instead of giving freely distributable skill points (if you keep something like that around), make a certain allotment of skills more or less mandatory (or for free). I personally liked the Iron Heroes skill system with skill groups you had access to. It made it very easy to improve the skills associated with their roles, but if you branched out, it was less effective. It still had its drawbacks..
 

I don't remember spell casting ending invisibility, it was just attacks.

Moldvay Basic Set pB17 said:
Invisibility Range 240'
Duration: permenant until broken (see below)

This spell will make the caster or any one person or object in range invisible. When a character becomes invisible, all the items (but not other creatures) carried and worn by that character also become invisible. Any invisible item will become visible once again and remain visible when it leaves the character's possession(is set down dropped and so forth). An invisible person will remain invisible until he or she attacks or casts a spell. A source of light may be made invisible but the light will remain visible.

This was changed in 1E to attacks only.

Also silence 15' radius was a second level cleric spell as well.
Yes indeed it was. In a game where lower level spells didn't automatically equal plentiful wands and scrolls of such things it was still an expenditure of magical resources. Making the expenditure trivial is what made the rogue into a 5th wheel, not the abilities/spells themselves.;)
 
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Some "random" things...

----

Skill Systems in general:
I think one "issue" with the system is that you need different number of skills for different roles or sublcasses inside your Fighter class. The Rogue just needs to cover a lot more skills than the standard brute fighter of 3E. If you want to cover both with the same main class, and allow a certain freedom in switching between these roles, you need to have a solution for that.
Not all skills are created equal, not all roles require the same number of skills, and it's hard to put this all under one heading. I am not sure how to solve this. Maybe instead of giving freely distributable skill points (if you keep something like that around), make a certain allotment of skills more or less mandatory (or for free). I personally liked the Iron Heroes skill system with skill groups you had access to. It made it very easy to improve the skills associated with their roles, but if you branched out, it was less effective. It still had its drawbacks..

I wasn't planning on using skill points. I am planning on using the skill group though. At this point I have no plans to connect skills to any character class or path. Any abilities that are vital to an archetype will be part of the class/path. Skills (at least for the moment) are bundled into groups or "jobs" such as thief, ranger, diplomat, ect. At 1st level the character chooses one set of skills as a primary set. This means that the character spent a lot of time on these skills and they function at a level equal to the character. At 6th level a secondary set is chosen which functions at 1/2 character level. At 12th level the character chooses a tertiary skill set ( a smattering of learning) and operates at 1/4 of character level.

There are also background skills that anyone can learn such as the typical craft/ profession skills. Every character will have three adventuring skill sets by level 12 which are really good/ fair/ and better than nothing. These choices are not tied to a class. All classes have access to the same number of skills.

The reasoning behind this instead of skill points is for the simplicity of making stats for NPC's that somewhat follow the guidelines for PC's without loose skill points to assign or huge lists of feats to browse. An NPC can simply be given skill set X as a primary level Y and done.
 

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