What's the WORST Star Wars movie?

[MarkB]

If your point is that the rebellion could never hope to match the first order fleet in combat…that’s a given. Ultimately the rebellion’s first order of business should always be evade and retreat.

But sometimes that’s not possible and you have to stand your ground. And in those scenarios it’s a hell of a lot more effective to sacrifice one medium class ship with the holdo maneuver to take out a fleet than to fight conventionally.

The Raddus isn't a medium class ship. It's the largest capital ship we've ever seen in Rebel / Resistance hands, with extremely tough shields that can withstand sustained bombardment, and it took out a handful of ships that were very tightly grouped. This tactic is not a fleet killer.

And, again, it's not unique either. In practically every major conflict we've seen in Star Wars, the rebels use much smaller ships to take out very big ones. Sometimes they're sacrificed in the process, sometimes they survive just fine. Having one more extremely situational, very costly tactic that achieves the same or less than all those other tactics is not a game-changer.

 

[Gradine]

Look, I hate to enter into this sort of discussion, but it's called out in the novelization (released just three months after the film) that the Raddus had experimental deflector shields that specifically allowed for this to happen. Call it handwaving, or a retcon, but there's an acknowledged reason it's not a go-to tactic. It's an answer that resolves it satisfyingly enough for me personally.

On the one hand, it's hard to fault people for not reading the novelization of the movie. On the other hand, this is perfectly sensible and honestly wouldn't rank in the top 10 worst hand-wavey contrived retcon in the Star Wars universe.

And, again, it's not unique either. In practically every major conflict we've seen in Star Wars, the rebels use much smaller ships to take out very big ones. Sometimes they're sacrificed in the process, sometimes they survive just fine. Having one more extremely situational, very costly tactic that achieves the same or less than all those other tactics is not a game-changer.

It's almost like the continual David-vs-Goliath imagery is thematic or something...

 

[Cadence]

Is there a favorite in SW universe explanation somewhere of why the imperial bridges have lots of windows sitting way up high to make nice targets? Out of universe, is it just to catch the 20rh century Navy vibe?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

When I lived in Texas we would have said it was all sizzle and no steak. I really liked some of the visuals from the new trilogy as well, Rey's instant bread from the first movie being my favorite, but spectacle isn't a replacement for a good story.

See, I completely disagree with this.

My point was more simple- I think (at least, I HOPE) that most people recognize that visual inventiveness of TLJ.

That said, I personally am a little ... whatevered ... about all the people who say that Rian Johnson, one of the best modern directors and storytellers we have, is all "visual style" and no plot. I mean ... really? Compared to ...

Zack "SLOOOOOOW MOTION COLOR DESTARUATION" Snyder?
JJ "Lens Flares make everything better" Abrams?
Joss "Insert Quips" Whedon?

Heck, all directors, even great ones, have their idiosyncrasies (Christopher "I Don't Care if People Can't Understand My Dialogue" Nolan?, Wes "More Twee, More Symmetry" Anderson?). But TLJ was the best film in the series since ESB.

Other than that, I'm dropping the topic. Because fans of the series have mostly ruined Star Wars as a purely enjoyable experience.

 

[Gradine]

Is there a favorite in SW universe explanation somewhere of why the imperial bridges have lots of windows sitting way up high to make nice targets? Out of universe, is it just to catch the 20rh century Navy vibe?

Out-of-universe, you probably got it. In-universe, I dunno, hubris?

 

[Gradine]

Heck, all directors, even great ones, have their idiosyncrasies (Christopher "I Don't Care if People Can't Understand My Dialogue" Nolan?,

Before he discovered he could drown out speech he was already Christopher "I Don't Understand This Thing You Humans Call 'Emotions' And Frankly I Don't Care To" Nolan

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Before he discovered he could drown out speech he was already Christopher "I Don't Understand This Thing You Humans Call 'Emotions' And Frankly I Don't Care To" Nolan

In fairness, we all get confused, sometimes.

 

[MarkB]

Out-of-universe, you probably got it. In-universe, I dunno, hubris?

Most likely. The design dates back to the Clone Wars era capital ships, and isn't unique to the Republic - quite a few Separatist ships had similar designs, like Grievous's command ship that has wall-to-wall windows flimsy enough that he can punch through then with an electrostaff.

I recall there was that Clone Wars episode where everyone's astonished by Ahsoka's genius in turning their star destroyer on its side so that the belly is facing the enemy and the bridge and hangar bay are shielded from incoming fire.

 

[Haplo781]

If your point is that the rebellion could never hope to match the first order fleet in combat…that’s a given. Ultimately the rebellion’s first order of business should always be evade and retreat.

But sometimes that’s not possible and you have to stand your ground. And in those scenarios it’s a hell of a lot more effective to sacrifice one medium class ship with the holdo maneuver to take out a fleet than to fight conventionally.

Take the second Death Star as the perfect example of this. You have a known stationary target. Forget the rebel armada and ground force, one small fleet to offer cover, one medium ship to holdo the Death Star. Everyone else goes home, emperors dead. Even if you want to say the shield was too strong for that, then you do it once the shield goes down, and you still would lose less ships in the process than what the rebels did when they slugged it out with the imperial navy.

Holdo maneuver, again, didn't destroy the enemy flagship, which is a fraction the size of a death star. The rebels could have lightspeed kamikaze'd their entire fleet at it and not taken out the emperor. Then they don't have a fleet and the emperor is still alive.grest plan.

 

[Haplo781]

See, I completely disagree with this.

My point was more simple- I think (at least, I HOPE) that most people recognize that visual inventiveness of TLJ.

That said, I personally am a little ... whatevered ... about all the people who say that Rian Johnson, one of the best modern directors and storytellers we have, is all "visual style" and no plot. I mean ... really? Compared to ...

Zack "SLOOOOOOW MOTION COLOR DESTARUATION" Snyder?
JJ "Lens Flares make everything better" Abrams?
Joss "Insert Quips" Whedon?

Heck, all directors, even great ones, have their idiosyncrasies (Christopher "I Don't Care if People Can't Understand My Dialogue" Nolan?, Wes "More Twee, More Symmetry" Anderson?). But TLJ was the best film in the series since ESB.

Other than that, I'm dropping the topic. Because fans of the series have mostly ruined Star Wars as a purely enjoyable experience.

100%. Johnson did an admirable job considering he shot a literal first draft that he started writing before the previous film was even finished.

Most folks don't realize how much work goes into rewriting a script or how utterly rough the early drafts are. Largely because writers don't usually share those drafts. But it's not at all uncommon for 75-90% of the words on the page to be different by the end of the process.

Disney's insane production schedule is the villain here, not Johnson or even Abrams.