D&D General When do you overrule RAW?

[Maxperson]

Then how can they harm it in the first place?

There are, very very rarely in my game, things that the PCs just can't hurt because of size. I never put them in a position where they have to fight such a creature, though.

 

[el-remmen]

I think all this talk of "realism" in the game is really about "consistency" and not really about being "realistic" in comparison to our real-world (although many characteristics will likely overlap). The DM needs to present a consistent game world where players aren't left guessing if their abilities will work at any given time. And, when something doesn't work as expected, there needs to be a strong reason within the game world that is both discoverable and communicated. In the case of Sentinel not working against a particular creature, that needs to be explicitly telegraphed ahead of time, IMO. And, if not, then the DM needs to lean into being a human who is capable of making mistakes, give the player the information their PC would/could/should have known, and let the player decide what to have their PC do instead. That's not to say that an occasional "combat puzzle" isn't okay - but it should come front-loaded with clues rather than some kind of trial and error experiment where the player has no way of knowing what will or won't work, leaving it basically up to chance or guesswork. Granted, they may have missed most/all the clues but at least the clues will make some sense in retrospect.

Now, at our table, Sentinel would work vs a kaiju. There are plenty of in-fiction reasons we can come up with, many described upthread, why it can be so. And it won't ruin my pre-determined DM story (namely b/c I've learned to let go of that concept many years ago and just let the story tell itself through the contributions of all at the table); nor will it ruin verisimilitude since we have all bought in that this is a fantasy world with magic and powers that don't map directly to IRL. That's just how we play. At other tables, of course, that mileage may vary.

I "liked" your post even though despite broadly agreeing, I am not sure I agree in practice that as much telegraphing is needed as you seem to suggest. Or maybe, I just like what you call "combat puzzles." Though this topic is also linked to my dislike for the idea that if a player can't use any particular ability (or use it as effectively) in any given encounter (even if it is their best or favorite ability) that it is somehow unfair or "a gotcha." Not that I am saying you are saying that - but to me figuring out what works and what doesn't in any given situation (whether it be ahead of time or during the encounter or some combination) is playing the game.

 

[Maxperson]

but does a martial really have any option at their disposal that would qualify as equal to 'a fourth level spell or above' in power that you would allow to affect 'godzilla'?

Mostly the ability to dish out a lot of damage. I'm not going to go digging through all of the abilities of all the martial subclasses to see if there's something more.

Basically, if a spellcaster could hurt it, so could a martial PC. If a martial PC has no chance to hurt it(see my post above regarding super huge creatures), then neither can the spellcasters. Something that large would shrug of meteor swarms as well.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Mostly the ability to dish out a lot of damage. I'm not going to go digging through all of the abilities of all the martial subclasses to see if there's something more.

Basically, if a spellcaster could hurt it, so could a martial PC. If a martial PC has no chance to hurt it(see my post above regarding super huge creatures), then neither can the spellcasters. Something that large would shrug of meteor swarms as well.

I wasn’t talking about in terms of doing damage, weapon attacks will typically be allowed to deal their standard damage to a giant creature but it’s control that i was referring to, in the referenced scenario it’s the Sentinel feat, but also things like manueuvres or grappling will be declared ineffective because they’re ‘low-tier’ and ‘wouldn’t realistically have any effect on such a creature’ but that’s how martial and magic is balanced martial gets frequent use of weaker abilities and magic has limited use of powerful abilities, but banning the effectiveness of all weaker abilities on such a creature hits the martials much harder as their abilities are designed to balance by being smaller scale, though some DMs will still allow low level magic to work as ‘its magic’

 

[Micah Sweet]

I wasn’t talking about in terms of doing damage, weapon attacks will typically be allowed to deal their standard damage to a giant creature but it’s control that i was referring to, in the referenced scenario it’s the Sentinel feat, but also things like manueuvres or grappling will be declared ineffective because they’re ‘low-tier’ and ‘wouldn’t realistically have any effect on such a creature’ but that’s how martial and magic is balanced martial gets frequent use of weaker abilities and magic has limited use of powerful abilities, but banning the effectiveness of all weaker abilities on such a creature hits the martials much harder as their abilities are designed to balance by being smaller scale, though some DMs will still allow low level magic to work as ‘its magic’

I feel you should have to be clever to deal with something like that, precisely because it snaps my reality suspenders to just fight it like you would a gang of kobolds, using the same abilities.

 

[Maxperson]

I wasn’t talking about in terms of doing damage, weapon attacks will typically be allowed to deal their standard damage to a giant creature but it’s control that i was referring to, in the referenced scenario it’s the Sentinel feat, but also things like manueuvres or grappling will be declared ineffective because they’re ‘low-tier’ and ‘wouldn’t realistically have any effect on such a creature’ but that’s how martial and magic is balanced martial gets frequent use of weaker abilities and magic has limited use of powerful abilities, but banning the effectiveness of all weaker abilities on such a creature hits the martials much harder as their abilities are designed to balance by being smaller scale, though some DMs will still allow low level magic to work as ‘its magic’

That's a personal thing that I have no control over, and neither do the rules. I can only speak to how I DM. What I can say is that I've met very, very few DMs who would allow a PC to grapple Godzilla successfully and just as few players who would expect that to happen, regardless of what the rules say.

 

[Reynard]

I feel you should have to be clever to deal with something like that, precisely because it snaps my reality suspenders to just fight it like you would a gang of kobolds, using the same abilities.

In the CR game, that is exactly how it turned out. beating on the thing for HP damage was not the way to defeat it. As it should be, IMO.

 

[Mort]

I feel you should have to be clever to deal with something like that, precisely because it snaps my reality suspenders to just fight it like you would a gang of kobolds, using the same abilities.

As long as ALL PCs have to be clever, that's fine - good even, because making players think outside of the box/their comfort zones can be great gaming (with the right group).

It's when only SOME PCs have to be clever, while others can just do their standard shtick , that I think there's a problem.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, higher-level people can take a bellyflop off the tallest tower in the land, onto the cobblestones in the street far below, and walk away dusting themselves off. That's exactly what people think of when they think of realism.

If someone goes to do a bellyflop off the tallest tower in the land I will inform them that I don't cap damage at 20d6 when they state their action. That, after a certain point, they simply aren't going to survive or, at the very least it will be a high constitution save or be knocked unconscious.

We all have different opinions and approaches to how we handle this stuff. I'm okay with action movie logic, I don't want Bugs Bunny.

 

[Oofta]

Um, with Godzilla?! Your 3 foot piece of steel isn't going to scratch his skin, let alone break an ankle or cut a tendon. What you describe could possibly work with a giant, but not with a creature that is 355 feet tall.

I don't remember the episode in question, but what was the creature? Because even a tarrasque is "only" 50 foot tall.